• [00:01:07] Three core skills in every sales cycle
• [00:01:41] Learning to stay silent
• [00:02:05] Empathy, patience, and the desire to understand
• [00:02:14] Beware the temptation to move too fast
• [00:02:25] The art of creating connection
• [00:02:36] CAB & CSAQ
• [00:03:07] Arguing means testing, validating, and adjusting
• [00:03:16] Show enthusiasm and clarity
• [00:03:26] Draw it out (literally)
• [00:03:43] The closing: beware of wrapping up too early
• [00:03:57] Not too early, but not too late either
• [00:04:14] A four-step logic
• [00:04:47] Adapt to your conversation partner
• [00:05:26] Decisions are no longer made alone
• [00:05:57] With a prescriber or recommender
• [00:06:31] Agreeing on the price
• [00:06:37] The Pearl Harbor example?
• [00:08:10] A price is fair if it’s based on strong conviction
• [00:08:26] Five keys to closing the deal
• [00:09:18] The Colombo effect
• [00:10:02] The power of anticipation
• [00:10:45] Teaser for the next topic
• [00:10:57] Wrap-up

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share with you our best practices in finding new customers for companies in the business-to-business sector.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom dot be website: P.H.C. O.M, and also on all good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible: via a like, a comment, a share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:07] Hello everyone, today we're tackling a fundamental theme: closing. And to close the deal, you have to be convincing. And to convince, you need to know. Three skills, three key stages in any sales cycle worthy of the name.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:21] Three phases. If they're badly orchestrated, you'll miss out on golden opportunities. Timing, posture, content, everything counts, so let's unroll this red thread together, this commercial version of the customer journey.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:41] As we've already said, getting to know someone means much more than obtaining a contact sheet or identifying a need. It means discovering the prospect's world, his language, his constraints and his challenges. It's not a question of talking, but of learning to keep quiet.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:54] And yes, one mouth for two ears, which means listening twice as much as talking. Speech is silver, but silence is gold. And to listen, we have a magic tool: active listening with the right questions.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:05] And then there are the essential human qualities: empathy, patience and a desire to learn. Put yourself in the other person's shoes, understand what they're not saying.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:14] But beware of the temptation to go too fast. I've seen too many salespeople who ask two questions, pick out a keyword and come up with their pitch like Lucky Luke. No, no, no, it takes time, it's built.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:25] Then comes the act of convincing, and here it's not enough to simply roll out a list of features. Convincing is the art of linking what you have with what the other person is experiencing.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:36] Exact. At this stage, the models we've already talked about are actually the "CAB" eh? A good place to start: Features, Benefits, Advantages. A step further, the CSAQ, C.S.A.Q. Characteristically, we have a data point. Meaning, we have an advantage. Question, are you sure this is the right benefit for you?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:54] Let's take an example. Our company is on a human scale, so what? What does this mean? This means you're in direct contact with one of the decision-makers. And we end with "This is important to you, isn't it?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:07] And if the answer is yes: banco! If not, we throw another pole. So arguing means testing, validating and adjusting.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:16] Above all, it's also about enthusiasm and clarity. All the good points have been made? Great, but have they been understood, accepted and validated? And that's our real challenge.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:26] Good technique for making yourself understood: make a drawing, useful for the visual, put in the steps, adapted, personalized for the customer, and then you've got something.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:37] And that's where we show our authority, because we're the experts and we bring a solution to the company.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:43] And now, the climax, the conclusion. Rhoooo how many times have I heard salespeople want to close too early, like "Hello, we're installing photovoltaic panels. We can even do it without you having to pay anything. Can I come and see you?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:57] Yes, and conversely, if you keep talking and arguing, well, it's too late, the momentum's gone, the train's left the station. And on the phone, when it's too late, we get the famous "Well, just send me a document, that'll be enough". And then it's clearly over, the prospect takes the lead and we're in defensive mode.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:14] To conclude properly, you have to respect a logic, yes. A four-point logic, and I invite you to keep it in mind. First point: recap key words, 30 seconds, summarize everything you've understood. Second point: propose a clear, motivating, "OK, what I'm proposing is..." follow-up. Three small points. Third point: ask the question, closed for example "Is it ok for you?" or open "What do you think?" but always assume. And fourth: take over the lead, explain the next steps and provide guidance.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:47] It sounds simple, but why don't we get 100% sales or 100% appointments when we talk to the right person?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:54] But because we didn't adapt to that right person, we didn't listen, we weren't creative, we weren't sure of ourselves. For example: we rarely, if ever, think of differentiating our proposal according to the profile of the person we're talking to. He's an asset, and we're going to build with him. He's an asset but closed, so we know the idea will have to come from him. You've got an open liability, you've got to take it by the hand, and that's when you can string together the "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes" questions. On the other hand, it's a closed asset, and we know very well that we're going to have to reassure it.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:23] In short, the same sentence doesn't sound the same to everyone.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:26] In fact, we now also have to conclude contracts with people who are not the final decision-makers. In today's companies, as everyone knows, decisions are no longer made alone.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:38] Cough. And the logic has to remain the same, we have to be able to take it to the next stage, and to do that we have to reach an agreement with two people, depending on the person. I'm thinking of an example: he's a sponsor, and it's a question of giving him the weapons to convince his boss, i.e. a clear document, an unstoppable logic, a message he can take back. And that's the deal we need to strike with him.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:57] The same logic applies to prescribers, who are a different kind of contact, aren't they? Let's cooperate! Come on, let's go to a meeting together and train him to carry the message internally. And for that, well, as we said, he has to agree. And it's once again this type of agreement that we're looking for, this agreement with him. In the meantime, don't forget to write down the key words that will summarize the project, and to validate the impact it will have on the stakeholders, which will help him... And it'll help you too.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:31] In the end, that's what concluding is all about, coming to an agreement together. And can we also agree on the price?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:37] Obviously, let's talk money. Do you know the story of the Pearl Harbor mechanic?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:42] Um, no, it doesn't ring a bell. Vas-y raconte!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:44] Ok, war 40-45, attack on Pearl Harbor, all the ships are sunk, there's one that's still standing but it has to be repaired because the engine won't start. As a result, the captain called in all his mechanics, but we couldn't get it started. Okay, so the U.S. Navy sends in its best experts, but it's impossible to get the scroggin' engine started. Ah, but he's heard of a little mechanic, who works on the island, who knows his stuff very, very, very well "Ok, we'll give him a call". He says, "Yeah, okay, that's fine. He looks down, picks up his big monkey wrench, you know the big monkey wrenches that are at least 50 centimetres long.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:21] They make a lot of noise

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:22] Sometimes even more. Bang! (Very loudly), excuse me. Well, they're typing in the right place, the "Poum, poum, poum, it's restarting" engine. Ah ok the commander all happy: "Well ok, you send me the bill, eh?". Then he gets the bill, $1,500, wow, $1,500 at the time is still a lot. "Ok, but I'm a little annoyed this little mechanic because this is too expensive. Break down the bill for me please, Mm?", okay. What appears on the invoice? Travel $15, labor $15, knowledge or typing $1,470. That's it, it's all there in the conclusion and in the price, it's assurance and serenity. Your price is the right price, provided you're convinced it's the right price. And the problem is not how much it costs, but how much it's worth.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:10] Okay, so it's all in the mindset. The price is right if it's based on a strong conviction.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:15] And that's what we need to get across in our proposals: we're not selling a product, we're selling a transformation, something that will solve a problem, something that will fulfill desires, the famous needs.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:26] So, to recap, to conclude you have to be ready to conclude. Can we sum up what's clearly important? There are five keys, and I'll give you the first. One: availability to listen.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:40] The second key is to pay attention to the signals: "Okay, now's the time, now's the right time".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:46] You also need confidence, self-confidence on the one hand. On the one hand, I'm sure of my proposal, and on the other, I trust the other. The dira " Oui."

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:54] Fourth key: assertiveness, without aggressiveness, to demonstrate your expertise.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:00] And finally, the fifth key is creativity: to be able to adapt or find the right formula.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:06] And there you have it: it's all a question of knowing how to stand back and not be afraid of concluding, or in a hurry.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:12] Concluding means saying "We're going to work together". It's not the end of the cycle, but the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:18] Let's finish with the ultimate closing trick: the Colombo effect... you know it?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:21] Yes, the TV series, when I wasn't born yet, but what's that got to do with anything?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:24] There was something good about that Inspector Colombo, you know, with his raincoat and his old Volvo. But the main thing is that he always had a way of asking questions, very specific questions, and in fact he would grill his alleged culprit and finally come to the conclusion "No, it can't be him". So he apologized, "Excuse me, I've bothered you, I'm going to leave, aren't I? At that point, well, the presumed culprit is completely relieved, what does he do? He lowers his guard, he lowers his defenses. And so it's the right moment for Colombo to ask the ultimate question, the one that will completely destabilize him, and finally identify that he's the real culprit.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:01] What's the link?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:02] Listen, enjoy the Colombo effect. You agree with the person you're talking to, great, he's relieved, so you can start planning the next step. You may not have signed the contract yet, but you've already got a first agreement. Relieved? Perfect, then propose something else, something extra, that will move your relationship forward, that will encourage her to think about something that could buy extra with you.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:27] In fact, you prepare for your next appointment, I admit, it's clever, you see the expert because you know what's going to happen, you're going to anticipate.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:34] It's like chess: you prepare your moves. Remember that you can't force a sale, you have to build it "step by step", but at the end, you also have to be able to say "Ok, let's go".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:45] Ok, well I'm going to get ahead of myself here, and I'll take you a step further: the next episode will be about negotiating the price. And this, believe me, is a real art. We'll talk about the ten techniques for presenting your prize.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:57] Merci madame Harmonie.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:58] Thank you, Mr Performance.

• [00:01:10] Introduction & context
• [00:01:17] How did you join PHCom?
• [00:01:42] What attracted you to the job posting?
• [00:02:04] Daring to pick up the phone and call
• [00:02:45] Learning in marketing
• [00:03:19] Lead Generation: definition and practices
• [00:03:39] Contributions as an intern
• [00:04:04] Main skills developed during the internship?
• [00:04:23] A different professional future?
• [00:04:58] Advice for future interns
• [00:05:25] What to concretely take away from this internship?
• [00:05:44] Learning to understand your interlocutor
• [00:06:14] A message to the PHCom teams?
• [00:06:30] End of the episode

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the transforma bxl studio with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point be website, P.H.C.O.M, and on all the good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:07] Hello Nathan.

Nathan Penninckx: [00:01:08] Hello Camille.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:08] How are you?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:01:09] Very, very good. No?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:10] We're here today to talk about you, because you joined PHCom as an intern almost three months ago.

Nathan Penninckx: [00:01:17] That's it

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:17] You're coming to the end of your experiment. And so we're here today to hear a little bit about what you've been through, and how you feel about it. And above all, how you came to work for PH Com

Nathan Penninckx: [00:01:26] How I got here, it all happened at EPHEC, I'm finishing my three-year baccalaureate, I'm in marketing. At the end of the year, we have to do an internship. I found this internship by searching on the internet and with the EPHEC database. I thought, why not, sent an e-mail, had an interview and that was it. I've been here five months now.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:42] What attracted you to this ad? There are certainly words that came out, or the way it was shot. Why did you lean towards PHCom?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:01:49] I have to admit, it was more the sales consultancy aspect that struck me, it was an environment I wanted to discover. It's also an environment that has helped me realize that it's really the commercial side of things, the consulting side. And I thought, why not? And I went and there it was. And now I'm at the end of the course, I've learned a lot, a lot.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:04] You've had the opportunity to develop a number of different skills. As you said, you've worked on the sales side by prospecting and making calls on behalf of our customers. It's not easy when you're young to pick up the phone and call people you don't know.

Nathan Penninckx: [00:02:17] I've never done it before, so it's not at all easy, I can tell you. I've had a lot of training, with Nadia in-house, who is a very, very, good trainer in this area. She gave me a lot of training in listening, speaking and understanding customers. And then there's the preparation in the background, which is quite important, so it's really not easy. But now I think I've gained a lot of experience and I know how to go about it, I know how to understand a customer because I think that's the most important thing. So there you have it, all the training I've had over the years has helped me get to where I am today.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:45] We were talking mainly about the commercial aspect, but don't forget that you're a third-year marketing student at EPHEC. That's what your internship is all about, before the commercial aspect, what do you remember about marketing? What have you learned?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:02:57] In terms of marketing, we have developed several aspects. Already, for example, we've tried to restructure a website for PHCom to try and redesign it. There's also the aspect of lead generation, which is quite important from a marketing point of view, because it's all about marketing. There's also the creation of events, networking for PHCom, management of social networks, so it's all been quite imposing internally and it was very interesting to be able to take part in all that.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:19] You talk about lead generation, it's important (Nathan Penninckx: It's very important, yeah), especially in a company. How would you define it, how do you work it?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:03:24] It's more a question of approach, of knowing how to approach a prospect, for PHCom. See how we're going to make it happen, how we're going to approach it and, in the end, how we're going to win its loyalty. And that's what lead generation is all about, and it's not easy, and it has to be learned, and clearly that's what we're learning at PHCom.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:39] What was your contribution?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:03:40] I think it was mainly learning how to manage real marketing projects in a company, because I'd never done that before, it was always for courses or school-related projects. So, above all, it was a matter of discovering how we post, of understanding what was done in marketing, agendas and so on. So I really got into it, and now I understand a bit better the ecosystem of a marketer in a company, especially in an SME.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:04] What are the main skills you developed during your internship?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:04:07] The commercial aspect, the integrity aspect, the human aspect, maybe the trust aspect too, because it also allows us to gain confidence, to see if the work we're doing is clear, well established and comprehensive, and also adapted to Stéphane who's the boss, so... That's what it's all about, a lot of integrity and hard work that I'm proud to have achieved.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:23] You certainly already had professional aspirations (Nathan Penninckx: Mm). Have these aspirations changed? Do you see your professional future differently?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:04:31] I have a passion, I'm a DJ at heart, so I have nothing to do with the commercial or marketing aspects. And I think this passion will always remain, I wanted to be a sound engineer, but then I diverted towards marketing because I always had the economic aspect in secondary school, so I went more towards this environment for my professional future. And yes, things have changed, because every year, every moment, new opportunities arise, so obviously my future is going to change. I don't know, but what I love is discovering new things, and this time I discovered the commercial side of things and I really enjoyed it.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:58] What would you say to the next trainee applying to PHCom? What would your advice be?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:05:03] I think my advice is to develop this commercial aspect, which is extremely important for me, for the future. Because, let's say two years from now I've got a really important guy calling me, well now I think I know how to handle that call, I know how to establish contact with that prospect or customer or... So it's really this commercial aspect that for me, commercial self-development, is hyper-important and hyper-enriching for anyone in fact.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:25] Talking about your future, what will you remember in concrete terms from your three months at PHCom? What will help you on your career path?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:05:32] The commercial aspect again, it's that, it's really that, it's that commercial aspect, it's listening

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:36] You mean the approach?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:05:37] The sales approach, i.e. listening, understanding, perhaps doing things in the background to be able to better manage a customer, etc., is all part of this.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:44] Yes, and then it's learning and realizing that not everyone is the same (Nathan Penninckx: No, not at all, not at all). So when you're prospecting, you learn to develop that ear and say "Okay, I've got this personality (Nathan Penninckx: That's it), how am I going to do it" (Nathan Penninckx: Exactly). As a young student, do you think it's important to get to know the people you're talking to?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:06:01] Ah, it's super important, for sure. For everyone's future, in any company, it's super important to understand someone, to see how they work, to adapt to them. And of course, we have to adapt ourselves to this person in order to go further with him or her.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:14] A final word, what would you say to the PHCom teams?

Nathan Penninckx: [00:06:17] Well thank you, thank you 1000 times. Because I've had a lot of training, I've had a very human relationship with them, and I think the strongest thing about PHCom is really the human relationship. And thank you for including me, thank you for teaching me all that and I wish them all the best for the future and... And that's it!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:30] Thank you Nathan, and all the best for (Nathan Penninckx: Thanks to you) your long and above all rewarding professional career.

Nathan Penninckx: [00:06:35] Thank you Camille.

• [00:01:07] Introduction: the right pitch
• [00:01:29] Sophie Dive, market developer
• [00:02:12] Sophie Dive’s advice
• [00:02:29] A recent example
• [00:03:15] The CSAQ
• [00:03:54] Bruno Cox, market developer
• [00:04:15] An argument that works well
• [00:04:41] A bad argument
• [00:04:51] Bruno Cox’s advice
• [00:05:45] A recent example
• [00:06:18] What makes the difference?
• [00:06:48] Can you create a need?
• [00:07:56] Building bridges with your conversation partner
• [00:08:16] The four pillars of rhetoric
• [00:09:24] Continuing with Cicero
• [00:10:54] Marc Pottiez, market developer
• [00:11:36] When do you propose a meeting?
• [00:11:51] An argument that works well
• [00:12:06] Marc Pottiez’s advice
• [00:12:18] In case of refusal
• [00:12:31] A recent example
• [00:13:01] What tipped the balance?
• [00:13:24] C.C.C: Clear, Short, Concise
• [00:13:32] Understanding your conversation partner
• [00:14:13] “No” is not the end
• [00:14:36] Announcement of the next topic
• [00:14:58] Conclusion and end of the episode

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point Be P.H.C.O.M website, and also on all good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:07] Hello everyone, welcome to PHCom, the podcast that boosts your sales performance while keeping your balance. I'm Mr. Performance.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:16] And I'm Mrs. Harmonie, and today we're going to talk about a little-forgotten yet essential art: the art of good argumentation. And yes, because good argumentation isn't just talking loud to be right.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:29] Exactly, it's a whole skill set. And to let us know, we put the question to a few market developers and prospectors, and here's what they had to say. Sophie Dive, what makes a good sales pitch?

Sophie Dive: [00:01:42] A good argument is one that touches your interlocutor, that makes your argument relevant, and that meets an expectation.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:51] What's the difference between an argument that goes down well and one that doesn't?

Sophie Dive: [00:01:54] In my opinion, you can't beat around the bush, you have to speak directly, because people don't have time on the phone. So you have to be pragmatic, results-oriented in your head, and not at all aggressive.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:12] Okay, you've got something you use.

Sophie Dive: [00:02:14] The voice is really the voice and the smile in the voice, and the speech. In any case, the feedback I get from customers is "Yes, we spoke to Sophie on the phone, we didn't get too many, too many details, but it made us want to meet you". It's about making people want to meet you.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:29] Do you have a recent example? You've just made an appointment.

Sophie Dive: [00:02:31] Here we are, with a finance manager. Hamza launched a new strategy that was quite successful for my colleague, and so here we are touching on the CFOs. The very open-minded gentleman seemed quite interested in the appointment because he accepted straight away. I sensed a certain questioning, and the argument that prompted me to make the appointment was: "Would you accept a free diagnosis? And "Yes", because it's free, because it doesn't commit you to anything. But what's important for our customer is that we've opened the door, he's entered our prospect's home, and now it's up to our customer to sell his product.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:09] Waouh! That's a really great summary! Indeed, she puts the words where and how they're needed.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:15] Yes, I would have liked to hear him talk about the CSAQ too.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:19] It's true that we've talked about this before. CSAQ stands for "Characteristics", which means that, your Advantage is, and a Question to validate that what I've said has gone through. It's a kind of guideline for presenting a proposal.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:33] And for this proposal to be successful, you need to think first and foremost about the person you're talking to, his or her needs, obstacles and motivations. Argument is clearly not about imposing ideas, it's about building a bridge to the other person.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:45] Very poetic, Mr. Performance, but very true. By the way, you've asked another prospecting manager a few questions on this very subject. We can listen to it together!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:54] Bruno Cox, what do you consider a good sales pitch?

Bruno Cox: [00:03:58] It's already having been able to identify the customer's needs, answer the customer's relevant questions, with fluidity, with the elements that can indeed be decisive in securing an appointment, attracting the customer's attention, attracting the customer's interest, that's it.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:15] What's a good or bad argument, after all?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:18] For me, the right argument is to have already analyzed the company's situation a little. And above all, the right argument for me is to be able to really meet a company's real needs and expectations. Now we need to know whether the company has needs or not. It means asking the right questions, asking open-ended questions to try and identify as much information as possible, and as many needs or expectations as possible.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:41] A bad argument, then?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:43] A bad argument is working only with closed questions. Because you don't receive any information, and it's to block you directly from a customer objection.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:51] Do you have a trick up your sleeve that makes it work?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:53] In any case, I try to have a clear but short introduction. So I'll give a short introduction, and then I'll ask the first open question directly. And at that point, it allows me to have a dialogue, to be able to exchange ideas with the customer in any case. And I try to go through the various questions that help identify needs once again. I don't have a particular trick, but let's just say that as a general rule, I'd say my introduction goes down well because it's fluid, because you can see there's no hesitation, because I use a tone that's reassuring too. I don't do hard selling, so you can see straight away that this isn't a call-center with a detailed script, etc. I adapt the script to the person I'm talking to, to their receptiveness and to any interests they show.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:45] As part of the appointment process. A recent example where you say to yourself "Ok, that worked well".

Bruno Cox: [00:05:51] Well, yes, I had two appointments yesterday. My introduction was very simple, I said "Am I in contact with Mr. So-and-so, head of maintenance? He says "Yes" and I ask him "Do you have two or three minutes to spare for me? He says "Yes, I'm listening", and I say "Well, we specialize in all aspects of preventive maintenance and energy optimization, and I'd like to know what type of machine you have on site and what problems, if any, you're experiencing...". And then the speech begins. And he's open to discussion.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:18] When you propose a meeting, what should make the difference?

Bruno Cox: [00:06:21] Well, once I sense that there's an interest, once I sense that they're in a phase of change or optimization, I say "Listen, but I think that in relation to all the elements you've just mentioned to me, a site visit would be interesting so that we can demonstrate the technology we're using and possibly do a needs analysis, and even more perhaps do an optimization of what you're using today. So I think an on-site visit would be really interesting. Are you open to this proposal? And then they say, "Well yes, I'm interested".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:48] Ok, super. The question I've been asking myself for the past 20 years is whether we should identify an existing need, or whether we can create one.

Bruno Cox: [00:06:55] We can create a need!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:57] But how?

Bruno Cox: [00:06:58] By asking the right questions, by saying, "Do you use maintenance? If so, what type of maintenance? Are you currently happy with the maintenance that's being implemented? Do you have your own maintenance team or do you call in outside companies for this type of maintenance? Ah, but listen..." And then there are the arguments: "So, from an energy point of view, where are you? Is your consumption high or not? Ah well, you know, the intelligent sensors we install directly in electrical cabinets enable you to have 24/7 monitoring, which guarantees continuous, reliable data. What's more, it saves you 15% in energy costs". "Ah, that interests me!"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:37] Okay, beautiful, I'm interested too.

Bruno Cox: [00:07:40] So, there are people who will indeed tell you they have an interest, and there are people who will indeed have to be aroused. And that, of course, is why we have standard questions, which enable us to identify whether there is indeed an interest, whereas at the outset he may not tell you that there is an interest, or he may not have identified the need, even though there may be one!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:56] In fact. So we were talking about building bridges with the person you're talking to, clearly through their needs, and that also means knowing what you want to say.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:06] So have a very clear objective.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:08] And avoid the blah trap. Argumentation is clearly not a contest of words. Better a well-chosen argument than a firework display of banalities.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:16] And the Greeks had already figured it out. The four pillars of rhetoric?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:21] With pleasure. The famous quartet: logos, ethos, pathos... And the latest: Kairos.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:29] Let's go one at a time. Logos means logic, facts, figures, rational arguments. Example: "No studies recommend this method, so it's ineffective", simple, clear and short. We've also already talked about the truths you can incorporate into your script.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:47] Then, with Ethos, we play the credibility card: "I'm the expert, I have the experience, you can trust me".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:54] Pathos is more about emotion. It's never too late to find meaning in what we do". And it only works if it's sincere.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:02] And finally, Kairos: the right tone. Because a great sales pitch at the wrong time is like offering an umbrella when it's 30 degrees out. In fact, I usually say that you have to start arguing when you've understood everything. I've understood: who my contact is, how he works, what his business needs are, and therefore how I'm going to offer him what I have to offer.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:24] Let's continue with the Greeks. Cicero had already established five precepts, so let's share them together?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:30] So number one: "Inventio", to come up with hard-hitting ideas, of course! But also "Dispositio", i.e. to assemble ideas, to create a coherent discourse.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:42] There's also the "Elocutio" to formulate them with style. It's really the use of images, words, turns of phrase, sentences and styles that really fit. For Cicero, "Elocutio" is characterized by four qualities: correctness, clarity, elegance and relevance. The style used - simple, medium or high - must be adapted to the circumstances and the audience.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:05] There's also the "Actio", i.e. to embody with voice and body, that's oratorical action. It's really about putting your speech into action, i.e. embodying it in front of your audience, or on the phone with the person you're speaking to. Through voice modulation, intonation and gestures. In fact, at this point, the speaker can demonstrate his or her conviction in order to maintain attention and achieve his or her objective. If the "Actio" is lacking, well, the argument will inexorably lose effectiveness, hence the importance of taking the trouble to work on this point in particular.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:39] And then there's "Memoria", the ability to remember what you've said. In training, step by step, argument by argument, without needing to give notes. To achieve this, the speaker can use a variety of techniques, such as mnemonics!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:54] Well, in the end, you have to be able to talk without reading a text, otherwise the exchange becomes cold, and that's exactly what Bruno was saying. Let's listen to a third interview, with Marc, which may shed a little more light: Marc Potier. What makes a good sales pitch?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:09] For me, a good argument is first and foremost an argument that relates to the person in front of me. Firstly, by the tone of voice, which is a pleasant, professional tone. I always thank "Ben voilà, thank you for taking the call", I always start like that, and "I'm calling you as part of...". So at this point I introduce the company, and then briefly outline the purpose of the call, and let the person speak at this point, it's a bit of a standard sales pitch.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:36] And at what point do you propose to meet, or not?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:39] As soon as the message has been passed on and I have the prospect's response, well, as soon as the prospect seems to understand what I'm saying and to be interested, then I'm going to propose a meeting.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:51] And what is the argument for proposing this meeting?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:55] It's a sign of interest in what we're offering as a service. In general, it's services, so as soon as he shows interest in the service, I say, "Well, can our sales manager meet with you about this?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:06] Okay, do you have anything, specifically, that you use?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:09] Non. The question is simple: "Well, at this point, can Caroline, who represents us here, stop by your place if you like, in the next few days or weeks? Does that suit you?" Something like that.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:18] And when he says "No", do you have any arguments against it?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:21] Yes, "You say no, no to what? So it's the period that's not working? Is there something else that isn't working for you? Would you prefer another time? Perhaps you'd prefer a video meeting, via Teams for example?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:31] You booked an appointment with a hospital for a debt collection customer. What made it work?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:37] First of all, the surprising thing was that I called him on his landline, because there was no access to his direct phone, so he answered, to my great pleasure and satisfaction. But look, here, given that he's a CFO, the services we were looking to offer seemed to interest him, particularly for debt repurchasing. This particular approach appealed to him, so he made an appointment.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:01] What made him accept the appointment? Why did he like it after all?

Marc Pottiez: [00:13:04] The idea of having a company of our size, our looks, our experience and our specificity in his sector of activity meant that the question of a takeover seemed interesting to him to discuss, and that's why he made the appointment.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:24] Beautiful! Thank you for this exchange Marc. We can sum it up with our good old "CCC": Clear, Short, Concise, no need to say too much, just right.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:32] And to be fair, you have to understand the person you're talking to. Are these drivers: sympathy, pride, novelty, comfort, money or security? We need to adapt our approach to each individual case.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:46] And also according to its profile, the way it works. Is it a person of action, reasoning, relationships, reflection? Is it open or closed? Because if it's closed, you'll have to reassure it first, for example. Well, all these good practices need to be put into practice at a given moment, in the here and now.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:08] Well yes, we don't argue in general, we argue for someone, it's tailor-made.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:13] Indeed, it's the key to the argument. Now, sometimes that person says "No", but a no is not the end, it's the beginning of the counter-argument.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:23] Yes, a no can simply mean "I didn't understand, I have another priority". Or "I'm just scared". It's up to us to decode it. Is this a real objection, a real misunderstanding? Or passive resistance?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:36] And here again, there's no ready-made speech. We listen, we adjust, we rephrase, we create an exchange, not a recitation. Of course, there are also techniques for counter-arguing, but that's for a future podcast.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:49] That's what good telephone argumentation is all about: listening, understanding, adapting, aiming and, above all, the desire to convince without forcing the issue.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:58] In short, be strategic, be human and be clear.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:01] Thanks for listening, and don't forget, if this episode has inspired you, share it, write it down or, better still, practice arguing like Cicero.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:15:10] See you soon on PHCom, the business intelligence podcast.

• [00:01:17] Episode introduction and Caroline's presentation
• [00:01:35] Presentation of Fabula
• [00:02:24] How does a digital training course work?
• [00:03:27] Purpose of this name change
• [00:03:47] Unique value proposition
• [00:04:57] Why choose PHCom?
• [00:05:39] Looking for sponsors for the school
• [00:05:47] A two-step mission
• [00:06:33] A Business Hub
• [00:07:39] Goal of the Business Hub
• [00:08:05] Sponsors vs Business Hub: which approach?
• [00:09:20] Company meetings: what experience sharing?
• [00:10:14] Long-term relationship: how to maintain?
• [00:11:13] Current challenges for Fabula
• [00:12:15] What are the expectations for the coming years?
• [00:12:53] Collaboration with PHCom in three words
• [00:13:56] After each meeting: feedback and discussion?
• [00:14:29] Thanks and episode closing

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:15] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:27] The "Performance, Harmony & Sales" Podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with sales functions.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:36] Every month, we share our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:43] You can find each episode on the PHCom point be P.H.C.O.M website, and also on all good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:54] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:02] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:09] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:16] See you soon.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:17] Hello Caroline

Caroline Desmecht: [00:01:18] Hello Camille

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:19] How are things today?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:01:20] Very, very good.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:21] I'm delighted to welcome you here to our beautiful podcast studio. This is a first exercise for you, have you done this before?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:01:28] Never, no. I've taken a podcast course, but I've never actually created a podcast.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:35] Okay, well that's great, you're going to do it like a boss then. So Caroline, tell us a little bit about who you work for? You work for Fabula? What do you actually do?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:01:44] What's up? Fabula was originally a school in Louvain-La-Neuve, formerly known as Charles Péguy. The school mainly trained students in the hotel, tourism and events sectors. And in recent months, the school has taken a different direction, focusing exclusively on Event Manager training. So we still have a face-to-face school in Louvain-La-Neuve, and my mission for the past few months has been to develop the cooperative society. Which will focus on digital training for Event Managers and the creation of an event community.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:24] How does digital training work when you're a student? So there's never any physical contact, so everything is done remotely and they learn remotely.

Caroline Desmecht: [00:02:32] So the idea is that you can learn from a distance, obviously, and we're aiming at different target audiences. We're obviously targeting students coming out of high school, or people who have already trained in communications or marketing, and who want to specialize in event management. But now we're also going to address the events sector itself, because when you're in the events business, you're so caught up in the flow of work that you don't always have the time to train, keep up to date and take part in seminars and TEDx, things like that. So the idea is that we can also offer this to professionals in the sector, in asynchronous training. This means that people learn at their own pace, and in conditional progression, which also means that you can't validate a training course if you haven't followed it chapter by chapter.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:27] Did you say you've changed your name?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:03:30] So why the name change, but because the school really took a different direction and Charles Péguy was still very strongly associated with tourism, the hotel business and events. Fabula focuses exclusively on events, and we wanted to breathe new life into the school.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:47] What sets you apart from all the other training courses available here in Belgium? What sets you apart?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:03:52] So, what sets us apart is the teachers. It's important to know that all our teachers are industry professionals, who work in the field every day, so they can really pass on and share the realities of the industry. The second thing is that our course curriculum has been totally rethought, based on seven pillars: Be, Do, Think, See & feel, Explore, Connect & Commit. All of this takes up the values that we believe are essential in training for the job and in the job itself. The third point that sets us apart from other schools is our NFT certification. Since we don't receive any subsidies from the Wallonia-Brussels Federation, we have created our own NFT certification, which is a means of tracing and freezing all the work of our students who are going to register on the blockchain, making it traceable, authentic and visible to anyone who wishes to see it.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:57] You called on PHCom, and as a reminder, we specialize in all aspects of marketing and sales development for companies and schools too. So how does the collaboration work? And why did you call us?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:05:12] So we called in PHCom because, as a new company with limited resources - and when I say limited resources, I mean not only financial, but above all human resources - I didn't know how to manage everything. I didn't know how to manage everything, PHCom is an expert in research and commercial canvassing, that's all, and I think that when you need results, it's better to call on experts than try to do it yourself.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:39] You've set up several projects with PHCom. Can we talk about looking for sponsors for the school?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:05:46] Exactly.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:47] There are also two other levels. Can you tell us a bit about how all this came about?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:05:52] Initially, PHCom's primary mission is to find sponsors. So we'd like to find companies that are sensitive to and active in the events sector to help us develop this digital platform, and already create an events sector community. We'd like to create a Biz, not a Club but a Hub, so we'll also have to canvass and raise awareness at that level. So I think PHCom could also have another mission here.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:33] When we talk about Business HUB, what exactly is HUB? It's getting people from the same sector together, talking, how do these moments go?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:06:41] The idea is really to be able to bring together as many people as possible from the events sector, but all sectors combined in fact, so we won't be limiting ourselves to events agencies or the audiovisual sector. We really want to be able to put an event caterer at the same table as an event producer or agency. Steward's agency and hostesses who also have very important roles at events. The idea is really to open up the sector, to enable people to discuss, share and think about a new vision of the events industry, which is already underway to some extent, but which really lacks dynamism, namely sustainability within the sector. It's a sector where we build a lot, we're very good at the ephemeral, but we also have to be able to give a second life to what we do. So that's another question we'd like to discuss with the whole sector.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:39] And the aim is really to create synergies, I presume?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:07:42] Synergies, 100% synergy, dynamics, interaction, collaboration, that's something we're really keen on, to be able to really put different people around the table, but we often tend to work with our suppliers whom we know well, but in fact there are a host of resources and potential elsewhere too. And so the idea is really to mix it all up.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:05] You don't address a sponsor in the same way as you address people and invite them into the Business HUB. How does this approach work? When you go to a meeting and you have to meet these people, these companies?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:08:16] So for sponsors, it's, I mean in quotation marks, simpler because you can identify the company. Often, these are companies that are really active in the events sector. I worked in the events industry for 20 years, so I'm already familiar with it, so it's easier for me to broach the subject with people who already know the sector. As far as a biz hub is concerned, we're going to attract a whole range of different people, people who are more or less involved in events, who were very involved at one time and who have now moved on to art and culture. It's a different approach. First of all, it's listening to people, talking to them, and then seeing a bit, feeling around, seeing a bit of "Oh well, this person here, what really touches her is the cultural sector. This person is more human-oriented". So it's all about adapting to others, listening, exchanging and trying to build bridges and see how we can co-create.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:20] How are your meetings with these companies going? Is there anything you'd like to share with us? Failures, successes too? When you talk to these people, how do things go?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:09:30] Generally speaking, I'd like to say that things are going pretty well. And because I know what I'm talking about, it's really easy to connect with people. But there have also been times when I've come across people who aren't really active in the events sector, but who were sympathetic to the idea of. And so here, it's more of an exchange, a listening, and finding out how we could, in the future, create something. Even though, as I talk to people, I get the feeling that we won't be moving on to the next stage just yet. But I think that the more the project develops, the more we can try to build bridges afterwards.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:14] Yes, and life is all about timing (Caroline Desmecht: Right). Maybe when you meet them, the synergies don't happen, but at least they know you exist and maybe one day they will. But that's what's so complicated: how do you keep going in the long term when you meet people like that? Do you have any tips? Does PHCom have any tips for you?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:10:32] So first of all, as soon as we finish an appointment, it's a little email, I send an email directly, sometimes I make a phone call afterwards to make sure the person has received my email. And then it's really going to be up to me to organize my agenda, to keep in mind, here's this person I know would be interested in this so... You have to get organized and keep an agenda. And I think things will fall into place like that over time, but it's really about creating a relationship at the time of the interview, the appointment, but also over time. But after that, everyone has a very busy schedule and we're going to have to build the relationship as well.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:13] What are the current challenges in finding investors for a private school like Fabula? Are there things where you say to yourself "Yeah, we can't do that now, in 2025".

Caroline Desmecht: [00:11:24] Not much at stake. For me, the biggest obstacle is that Fabula is a school, we train people, and at the moment, investors are more interested in technological and digital innovation. Because we know that there will be a return on investment sooner or later. Training people, even if it's still education and, in our eyes, something of prime importance in a society, is less profitable, and therefore more difficult to attract investors. But after that, it's also up to us to convince them with the project, and so we have to regularly rethink the project according to the targets we want to reach. So here we are, sailing, sailing and... We'll see.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:15] So what does the future hold for Fabula, and what are your expectations for the coming years?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:12:20] Our expectations, our ambition, would really be to see an active events community on our digital platform, to see that people are interested in the content of our training courses, that they follow them, that they talk about them. And then, in a second phase, the real aim is to be able to organize face-to-face events with the whole community, to be able to tackle different themes and really create links. That's really our ambition, to create links and break down barriers in the sector.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:53] If you had to define your relationship with PHCom in three words, what would you say?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:12:59] Coaching, learning and support. I'm going to elaborate: coaching, Stéphane here at your company, is a great listener, and in coaching that's something very important, so he really put himself in a position of active listening to understand the project, to know how he could make it his own. Learning, that's because afterwards he gave us a little course in "Ok, how do we prepare for the first telephone appointment?" Then, "How do you prepare for the second face-to-face meeting?", and then again for the third meeting until an agreement is signed. I'd never done that before, so it was reassuring for me to have Stéphane around, he was always there, intervening when he felt like it. And then we debriefed at the end of the meeting, so there you have it, very nice and very rich.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:56] And at the end of each meeting with his companies, his sponsors, his patrons, all the people you met with Stéphane, what came out? You leave the door and chat with Stéphane. How do these exchanges go?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:14:09] Ben is always very good. He says, "There, maybe you should have talked more about this, maybe you talked a little too much about that. And it's true that emptiness comes up a lot, too, in the thinking of the events sector, so there you have it, COVID has had its impact, and its importance, and there you have it. But generally always great, always caring and always constructive.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:29] Thank you very much Caroline for this exchange, and all the best for the future.

Caroline Desmecht: [00:14:33] Many thanks Camille and many thanks to PHCom.