• [00:01:07] Introduction: the right pitch
• [00:01:29] Sophie Dive, market developer
• [00:02:12] Sophie Dive’s advice
• [00:02:29] A recent example
• [00:03:15] The CSAQ
• [00:03:54] Bruno Cox, market developer
• [00:04:15] An argument that works well
• [00:04:41] A bad argument
• [00:04:51] Bruno Cox’s advice
• [00:05:45] A recent example
• [00:06:18] What makes the difference?
• [00:06:48] Can you create a need?
• [00:07:56] Building bridges with your conversation partner
• [00:08:16] The four pillars of rhetoric
• [00:09:24] Continuing with Cicero
• [00:10:54] Marc Pottiez, market developer
• [00:11:36] When do you propose a meeting?
• [00:11:51] An argument that works well
• [00:12:06] Marc Pottiez’s advice
• [00:12:18] In case of refusal
• [00:12:31] A recent example
• [00:13:01] What tipped the balance?
• [00:13:24] C.C.C: Clear, Short, Concise
• [00:13:32] Understanding your conversation partner
• [00:14:13] “No” is not the end
• [00:14:36] Announcement of the next topic
• [00:14:58] Conclusion and end of the episode

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point Be P.H.C.O.M website, and also on all good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:07] Hello everyone, welcome to PHCom, the podcast that boosts your sales performance while keeping your balance. I'm Mr. Performance.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:16] And I'm Mrs. Harmonie, and today we're going to talk about a little-forgotten yet essential art: the art of good argumentation. And yes, because good argumentation isn't just talking loud to be right.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:29] Exactly, it's a whole skill set. And to let us know, we put the question to a few market developers and prospectors, and here's what they had to say. Sophie Dive, what makes a good sales pitch?

Sophie Dive: [00:01:42] A good argument is one that touches your interlocutor, that makes your argument relevant, and that meets an expectation.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:51] What's the difference between an argument that goes down well and one that doesn't?

Sophie Dive: [00:01:54] In my opinion, you can't beat around the bush, you have to speak directly, because people don't have time on the phone. So you have to be pragmatic, results-oriented in your head, and not at all aggressive.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:12] Okay, you've got something you use.

Sophie Dive: [00:02:14] The voice is really the voice and the smile in the voice, and the speech. In any case, the feedback I get from customers is "Yes, we spoke to Sophie on the phone, we didn't get too many, too many details, but it made us want to meet you". It's about making people want to meet you.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:29] Do you have a recent example? You've just made an appointment.

Sophie Dive: [00:02:31] Here we are, with a finance manager. Hamza launched a new strategy that was quite successful for my colleague, and so here we are touching on the CFOs. The very open-minded gentleman seemed quite interested in the appointment because he accepted straight away. I sensed a certain questioning, and the argument that prompted me to make the appointment was: "Would you accept a free diagnosis? And "Yes", because it's free, because it doesn't commit you to anything. But what's important for our customer is that we've opened the door, he's entered our prospect's home, and now it's up to our customer to sell his product.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:09] Waouh! That's a really great summary! Indeed, she puts the words where and how they're needed.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:15] Yes, I would have liked to hear him talk about the CSAQ too.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:19] It's true that we've talked about this before. CSAQ stands for "Characteristics", which means that, your Advantage is, and a Question to validate that what I've said has gone through. It's a kind of guideline for presenting a proposal.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:33] And for this proposal to be successful, you need to think first and foremost about the person you're talking to, his or her needs, obstacles and motivations. Argument is clearly not about imposing ideas, it's about building a bridge to the other person.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:45] Very poetic, Mr. Performance, but very true. By the way, you've asked another prospecting manager a few questions on this very subject. We can listen to it together!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:54] Bruno Cox, what do you consider a good sales pitch?

Bruno Cox: [00:03:58] It's already having been able to identify the customer's needs, answer the customer's relevant questions, with fluidity, with the elements that can indeed be decisive in securing an appointment, attracting the customer's attention, attracting the customer's interest, that's it.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:15] What's a good or bad argument, after all?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:18] For me, the right argument is to have already analyzed the company's situation a little. And above all, the right argument for me is to be able to really meet a company's real needs and expectations. Now we need to know whether the company has needs or not. It means asking the right questions, asking open-ended questions to try and identify as much information as possible, and as many needs or expectations as possible.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:41] A bad argument, then?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:43] A bad argument is working only with closed questions. Because you don't receive any information, and it's to block you directly from a customer objection.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:51] Do you have a trick up your sleeve that makes it work?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:53] In any case, I try to have a clear but short introduction. So I'll give a short introduction, and then I'll ask the first open question directly. And at that point, it allows me to have a dialogue, to be able to exchange ideas with the customer in any case. And I try to go through the various questions that help identify needs once again. I don't have a particular trick, but let's just say that as a general rule, I'd say my introduction goes down well because it's fluid, because you can see there's no hesitation, because I use a tone that's reassuring too. I don't do hard selling, so you can see straight away that this isn't a call-center with a detailed script, etc. I adapt the script to the person I'm talking to, to their receptiveness and to any interests they show.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:45] As part of the appointment process. A recent example where you say to yourself "Ok, that worked well".

Bruno Cox: [00:05:51] Well, yes, I had two appointments yesterday. My introduction was very simple, I said "Am I in contact with Mr. So-and-so, head of maintenance? He says "Yes" and I ask him "Do you have two or three minutes to spare for me? He says "Yes, I'm listening", and I say "Well, we specialize in all aspects of preventive maintenance and energy optimization, and I'd like to know what type of machine you have on site and what problems, if any, you're experiencing...". And then the speech begins. And he's open to discussion.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:18] When you propose a meeting, what should make the difference?

Bruno Cox: [00:06:21] Well, once I sense that there's an interest, once I sense that they're in a phase of change or optimization, I say "Listen, but I think that in relation to all the elements you've just mentioned to me, a site visit would be interesting so that we can demonstrate the technology we're using and possibly do a needs analysis, and even more perhaps do an optimization of what you're using today. So I think an on-site visit would be really interesting. Are you open to this proposal? And then they say, "Well yes, I'm interested".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:48] Ok, super. The question I've been asking myself for the past 20 years is whether we should identify an existing need, or whether we can create one.

Bruno Cox: [00:06:55] We can create a need!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:57] But how?

Bruno Cox: [00:06:58] By asking the right questions, by saying, "Do you use maintenance? If so, what type of maintenance? Are you currently happy with the maintenance that's being implemented? Do you have your own maintenance team or do you call in outside companies for this type of maintenance? Ah, but listen..." And then there are the arguments: "So, from an energy point of view, where are you? Is your consumption high or not? Ah well, you know, the intelligent sensors we install directly in electrical cabinets enable you to have 24/7 monitoring, which guarantees continuous, reliable data. What's more, it saves you 15% in energy costs". "Ah, that interests me!"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:37] Okay, beautiful, I'm interested too.

Bruno Cox: [00:07:40] So, there are people who will indeed tell you they have an interest, and there are people who will indeed have to be aroused. And that, of course, is why we have standard questions, which enable us to identify whether there is indeed an interest, whereas at the outset he may not tell you that there is an interest, or he may not have identified the need, even though there may be one!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:56] In fact. So we were talking about building bridges with the person you're talking to, clearly through their needs, and that also means knowing what you want to say.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:06] So have a very clear objective.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:08] And avoid the blah trap. Argumentation is clearly not a contest of words. Better a well-chosen argument than a firework display of banalities.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:16] And the Greeks had already figured it out. The four pillars of rhetoric?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:21] With pleasure. The famous quartet: logos, ethos, pathos... And the latest: Kairos.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:29] Let's go one at a time. Logos means logic, facts, figures, rational arguments. Example: "No studies recommend this method, so it's ineffective", simple, clear and short. We've also already talked about the truths you can incorporate into your script.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:47] Then, with Ethos, we play the credibility card: "I'm the expert, I have the experience, you can trust me".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:54] Pathos is more about emotion. It's never too late to find meaning in what we do". And it only works if it's sincere.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:02] And finally, Kairos: the right tone. Because a great sales pitch at the wrong time is like offering an umbrella when it's 30 degrees out. In fact, I usually say that you have to start arguing when you've understood everything. I've understood: who my contact is, how he works, what his business needs are, and therefore how I'm going to offer him what I have to offer.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:24] Let's continue with the Greeks. Cicero had already established five precepts, so let's share them together?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:30] So number one: "Inventio", to come up with hard-hitting ideas, of course! But also "Dispositio", i.e. to assemble ideas, to create a coherent discourse.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:42] There's also the "Elocutio" to formulate them with style. It's really the use of images, words, turns of phrase, sentences and styles that really fit. For Cicero, "Elocutio" is characterized by four qualities: correctness, clarity, elegance and relevance. The style used - simple, medium or high - must be adapted to the circumstances and the audience.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:05] There's also the "Actio", i.e. to embody with voice and body, that's oratorical action. It's really about putting your speech into action, i.e. embodying it in front of your audience, or on the phone with the person you're speaking to. Through voice modulation, intonation and gestures. In fact, at this point, the speaker can demonstrate his or her conviction in order to maintain attention and achieve his or her objective. If the "Actio" is lacking, well, the argument will inexorably lose effectiveness, hence the importance of taking the trouble to work on this point in particular.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:39] And then there's "Memoria", the ability to remember what you've said. In training, step by step, argument by argument, without needing to give notes. To achieve this, the speaker can use a variety of techniques, such as mnemonics!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:54] Well, in the end, you have to be able to talk without reading a text, otherwise the exchange becomes cold, and that's exactly what Bruno was saying. Let's listen to a third interview, with Marc, which may shed a little more light: Marc Potier. What makes a good sales pitch?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:09] For me, a good argument is first and foremost an argument that relates to the person in front of me. Firstly, by the tone of voice, which is a pleasant, professional tone. I always thank "Ben voilà, thank you for taking the call", I always start like that, and "I'm calling you as part of...". So at this point I introduce the company, and then briefly outline the purpose of the call, and let the person speak at this point, it's a bit of a standard sales pitch.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:36] And at what point do you propose to meet, or not?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:39] As soon as the message has been passed on and I have the prospect's response, well, as soon as the prospect seems to understand what I'm saying and to be interested, then I'm going to propose a meeting.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:51] And what is the argument for proposing this meeting?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:55] It's a sign of interest in what we're offering as a service. In general, it's services, so as soon as he shows interest in the service, I say, "Well, can our sales manager meet with you about this?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:06] Okay, do you have anything, specifically, that you use?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:09] Non. The question is simple: "Well, at this point, can Caroline, who represents us here, stop by your place if you like, in the next few days or weeks? Does that suit you?" Something like that.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:18] And when he says "No", do you have any arguments against it?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:21] Yes, "You say no, no to what? So it's the period that's not working? Is there something else that isn't working for you? Would you prefer another time? Perhaps you'd prefer a video meeting, via Teams for example?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:31] You booked an appointment with a hospital for a debt collection customer. What made it work?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:37] First of all, the surprising thing was that I called him on his landline, because there was no access to his direct phone, so he answered, to my great pleasure and satisfaction. But look, here, given that he's a CFO, the services we were looking to offer seemed to interest him, particularly for debt repurchasing. This particular approach appealed to him, so he made an appointment.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:01] What made him accept the appointment? Why did he like it after all?

Marc Pottiez: [00:13:04] The idea of having a company of our size, our looks, our experience and our specificity in his sector of activity meant that the question of a takeover seemed interesting to him to discuss, and that's why he made the appointment.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:24] Beautiful! Thank you for this exchange Marc. We can sum it up with our good old "CCC": Clear, Short, Concise, no need to say too much, just right.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:32] And to be fair, you have to understand the person you're talking to. Are these drivers: sympathy, pride, novelty, comfort, money or security? We need to adapt our approach to each individual case.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:46] And also according to its profile, the way it works. Is it a person of action, reasoning, relationships, reflection? Is it open or closed? Because if it's closed, you'll have to reassure it first, for example. Well, all these good practices need to be put into practice at a given moment, in the here and now.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:08] Well yes, we don't argue in general, we argue for someone, it's tailor-made.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:13] Indeed, it's the key to the argument. Now, sometimes that person says "No", but a no is not the end, it's the beginning of the counter-argument.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:23] Yes, a no can simply mean "I didn't understand, I have another priority". Or "I'm just scared". It's up to us to decode it. Is this a real objection, a real misunderstanding? Or passive resistance?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:36] And here again, there's no ready-made speech. We listen, we adjust, we rephrase, we create an exchange, not a recitation. Of course, there are also techniques for counter-arguing, but that's for a future podcast.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:49] That's what good telephone argumentation is all about: listening, understanding, adapting, aiming and, above all, the desire to convince without forcing the issue.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:58] In short, be strategic, be human and be clear.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:01] Thanks for listening, and don't forget, if this episode has inspired you, share it, write it down or, better still, practice arguing like Cicero.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:15:10] See you soon on PHCom, the business intelligence podcast.

• [00:01:17] Episode introduction and Caroline's presentation
• [00:01:35] Presentation of Fabula
• [00:02:24] How does a digital training course work?
• [00:03:27] Purpose of this name change
• [00:03:47] Unique value proposition
• [00:04:57] Why choose PHCom?
• [00:05:39] Looking for sponsors for the school
• [00:05:47] A two-step mission
• [00:06:33] A Business Hub
• [00:07:39] Goal of the Business Hub
• [00:08:05] Sponsors vs Business Hub: which approach?
• [00:09:20] Company meetings: what experience sharing?
• [00:10:14] Long-term relationship: how to maintain?
• [00:11:13] Current challenges for Fabula
• [00:12:15] What are the expectations for the coming years?
• [00:12:53] Collaboration with PHCom in three words
• [00:13:56] After each meeting: feedback and discussion?
• [00:14:29] Thanks and episode closing

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:15] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:27] The "Performance, Harmony & Sales" Podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with sales functions.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:36] Every month, we share our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:43] You can find each episode on the PHCom point be P.H.C.O.M website, and also on all good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:54] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:02] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:09] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:16] See you soon.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:17] Hello Caroline

Caroline Desmecht: [00:01:18] Hello Camille

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:19] How are things today?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:01:20] Very, very good.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:21] I'm delighted to welcome you here to our beautiful podcast studio. This is a first exercise for you, have you done this before?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:01:28] Never, no. I've taken a podcast course, but I've never actually created a podcast.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:35] Okay, well that's great, you're going to do it like a boss then. So Caroline, tell us a little bit about who you work for? You work for Fabula? What do you actually do?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:01:44] What's up? Fabula was originally a school in Louvain-La-Neuve, formerly known as Charles Péguy. The school mainly trained students in the hotel, tourism and events sectors. And in recent months, the school has taken a different direction, focusing exclusively on Event Manager training. So we still have a face-to-face school in Louvain-La-Neuve, and my mission for the past few months has been to develop the cooperative society. Which will focus on digital training for Event Managers and the creation of an event community.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:24] How does digital training work when you're a student? So there's never any physical contact, so everything is done remotely and they learn remotely.

Caroline Desmecht: [00:02:32] So the idea is that you can learn from a distance, obviously, and we're aiming at different target audiences. We're obviously targeting students coming out of high school, or people who have already trained in communications or marketing, and who want to specialize in event management. But now we're also going to address the events sector itself, because when you're in the events business, you're so caught up in the flow of work that you don't always have the time to train, keep up to date and take part in seminars and TEDx, things like that. So the idea is that we can also offer this to professionals in the sector, in asynchronous training. This means that people learn at their own pace, and in conditional progression, which also means that you can't validate a training course if you haven't followed it chapter by chapter.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:27] Did you say you've changed your name?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:03:30] So why the name change, but because the school really took a different direction and Charles Péguy was still very strongly associated with tourism, the hotel business and events. Fabula focuses exclusively on events, and we wanted to breathe new life into the school.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:47] What sets you apart from all the other training courses available here in Belgium? What sets you apart?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:03:52] So, what sets us apart is the teachers. It's important to know that all our teachers are industry professionals, who work in the field every day, so they can really pass on and share the realities of the industry. The second thing is that our course curriculum has been totally rethought, based on seven pillars: Be, Do, Think, See & feel, Explore, Connect & Commit. All of this takes up the values that we believe are essential in training for the job and in the job itself. The third point that sets us apart from other schools is our NFT certification. Since we don't receive any subsidies from the Wallonia-Brussels Federation, we have created our own NFT certification, which is a means of tracing and freezing all the work of our students who are going to register on the blockchain, making it traceable, authentic and visible to anyone who wishes to see it.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:57] You called on PHCom, and as a reminder, we specialize in all aspects of marketing and sales development for companies and schools too. So how does the collaboration work? And why did you call us?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:05:12] So we called in PHCom because, as a new company with limited resources - and when I say limited resources, I mean not only financial, but above all human resources - I didn't know how to manage everything. I didn't know how to manage everything, PHCom is an expert in research and commercial canvassing, that's all, and I think that when you need results, it's better to call on experts than try to do it yourself.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:39] You've set up several projects with PHCom. Can we talk about looking for sponsors for the school?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:05:46] Exactly.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:47] There are also two other levels. Can you tell us a bit about how all this came about?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:05:52] Initially, PHCom's primary mission is to find sponsors. So we'd like to find companies that are sensitive to and active in the events sector to help us develop this digital platform, and already create an events sector community. We'd like to create a Biz, not a Club but a Hub, so we'll also have to canvass and raise awareness at that level. So I think PHCom could also have another mission here.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:33] When we talk about Business HUB, what exactly is HUB? It's getting people from the same sector together, talking, how do these moments go?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:06:41] The idea is really to be able to bring together as many people as possible from the events sector, but all sectors combined in fact, so we won't be limiting ourselves to events agencies or the audiovisual sector. We really want to be able to put an event caterer at the same table as an event producer or agency. Steward's agency and hostesses who also have very important roles at events. The idea is really to open up the sector, to enable people to discuss, share and think about a new vision of the events industry, which is already underway to some extent, but which really lacks dynamism, namely sustainability within the sector. It's a sector where we build a lot, we're very good at the ephemeral, but we also have to be able to give a second life to what we do. So that's another question we'd like to discuss with the whole sector.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:39] And the aim is really to create synergies, I presume?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:07:42] Synergies, 100% synergy, dynamics, interaction, collaboration, that's something we're really keen on, to be able to really put different people around the table, but we often tend to work with our suppliers whom we know well, but in fact there are a host of resources and potential elsewhere too. And so the idea is really to mix it all up.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:05] You don't address a sponsor in the same way as you address people and invite them into the Business HUB. How does this approach work? When you go to a meeting and you have to meet these people, these companies?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:08:16] So for sponsors, it's, I mean in quotation marks, simpler because you can identify the company. Often, these are companies that are really active in the events sector. I worked in the events industry for 20 years, so I'm already familiar with it, so it's easier for me to broach the subject with people who already know the sector. As far as a biz hub is concerned, we're going to attract a whole range of different people, people who are more or less involved in events, who were very involved at one time and who have now moved on to art and culture. It's a different approach. First of all, it's listening to people, talking to them, and then seeing a bit, feeling around, seeing a bit of "Oh well, this person here, what really touches her is the cultural sector. This person is more human-oriented". So it's all about adapting to others, listening, exchanging and trying to build bridges and see how we can co-create.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:20] How are your meetings with these companies going? Is there anything you'd like to share with us? Failures, successes too? When you talk to these people, how do things go?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:09:30] Generally speaking, I'd like to say that things are going pretty well. And because I know what I'm talking about, it's really easy to connect with people. But there have also been times when I've come across people who aren't really active in the events sector, but who were sympathetic to the idea of. And so here, it's more of an exchange, a listening, and finding out how we could, in the future, create something. Even though, as I talk to people, I get the feeling that we won't be moving on to the next stage just yet. But I think that the more the project develops, the more we can try to build bridges afterwards.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:14] Yes, and life is all about timing (Caroline Desmecht: Right). Maybe when you meet them, the synergies don't happen, but at least they know you exist and maybe one day they will. But that's what's so complicated: how do you keep going in the long term when you meet people like that? Do you have any tips? Does PHCom have any tips for you?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:10:32] So first of all, as soon as we finish an appointment, it's a little email, I send an email directly, sometimes I make a phone call afterwards to make sure the person has received my email. And then it's really going to be up to me to organize my agenda, to keep in mind, here's this person I know would be interested in this so... You have to get organized and keep an agenda. And I think things will fall into place like that over time, but it's really about creating a relationship at the time of the interview, the appointment, but also over time. But after that, everyone has a very busy schedule and we're going to have to build the relationship as well.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:13] What are the current challenges in finding investors for a private school like Fabula? Are there things where you say to yourself "Yeah, we can't do that now, in 2025".

Caroline Desmecht: [00:11:24] Not much at stake. For me, the biggest obstacle is that Fabula is a school, we train people, and at the moment, investors are more interested in technological and digital innovation. Because we know that there will be a return on investment sooner or later. Training people, even if it's still education and, in our eyes, something of prime importance in a society, is less profitable, and therefore more difficult to attract investors. But after that, it's also up to us to convince them with the project, and so we have to regularly rethink the project according to the targets we want to reach. So here we are, sailing, sailing and... We'll see.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:15] So what does the future hold for Fabula, and what are your expectations for the coming years?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:12:20] Our expectations, our ambition, would really be to see an active events community on our digital platform, to see that people are interested in the content of our training courses, that they follow them, that they talk about them. And then, in a second phase, the real aim is to be able to organize face-to-face events with the whole community, to be able to tackle different themes and really create links. That's really our ambition, to create links and break down barriers in the sector.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:53] If you had to define your relationship with PHCom in three words, what would you say?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:12:59] Coaching, learning and support. I'm going to elaborate: coaching, Stéphane here at your company, is a great listener, and in coaching that's something very important, so he really put himself in a position of active listening to understand the project, to know how he could make it his own. Learning, that's because afterwards he gave us a little course in "Ok, how do we prepare for the first telephone appointment?" Then, "How do you prepare for the second face-to-face meeting?", and then again for the third meeting until an agreement is signed. I'd never done that before, so it was reassuring for me to have Stéphane around, he was always there, intervening when he felt like it. And then we debriefed at the end of the meeting, so there you have it, very nice and very rich.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:56] And at the end of each meeting with his companies, his sponsors, his patrons, all the people you met with Stéphane, what came out? You leave the door and chat with Stéphane. How do these exchanges go?

Caroline Desmecht: [00:14:09] Ben is always very good. He says, "There, maybe you should have talked more about this, maybe you talked a little too much about that. And it's true that emptiness comes up a lot, too, in the thinking of the events sector, so there you have it, COVID has had its impact, and its importance, and there you have it. But generally always great, always caring and always constructive.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:29] Thank you very much Caroline for this exchange, and all the best for the future.

Caroline Desmecht: [00:14:33] Many thanks Camille and many thanks to PHCom.

• [00:00:00] Intro jingle
• [00:01:11] The phone script, a framework
• [00:01:35] Phone script, conversation guide
• [00:01:51] Importance of qualified appointments
• [00:01:59] Difference between lead and appointment
• [00:02:34] Qualified lead with need
• [00:02:44] BANT method explained
• [00:03:07] Types of appointments
• [00:03:34] Call objective
• [00:03:44] Script structure
• [00:04:10] Script preparation
• [00:05:41] Required script skills
• [00:06:55] Possible strategic approaches
• [00:07:08] Key skills and attitudes
• [00:08:28] The concept of real truths
• [00:09:16] Shared observation
• [00:09:30] Shared real truth
• [00:09:32] Engaging formulations
• [00:10:18] Example hooks
• [00:10:22] Engaging questions
• [00:11:08] Value transition phrases
• [00:11:45] Getting an appointment
• [00:12:17] Reassuring phrases
• [00:12:55] Attitude to adopt
• [00:14:17] The junior without chat
• [00:14:41] AI and ChatGPT
• [00:15:15] Key skills summary
• [00:16:18] Adapting to the interlocutor
• [00:16:36] The question that hits home
• [00:16:57] Controlled improvisation
• [00:17:03] Focus on qualified appointment
• [00:17:07] Conclusion
• [00:17:43] Client series announcement

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio in Brussels with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmonie é Commercial" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point be website: P.H.C.O.M, and also on all good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:07] Hello, Madame Harmonie.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:08] Hello Stéphane, or Monsieur Performance, the choice is yours.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:11] Go for one or the other. So we've already talked about motivation, punchy intro, storytelling and segmentation, and now it's time to get down to it. Today we're talking about the script, the real one, the one that lands the appointment, the script that hits the nail on the head. In any case, that's the subject we're going to concentrate on, since a good script should also help to sell. But here, first and foremost, let's look at how to set up a meeting.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:35] Let's face it, the telephone script is a formidable weapon, or sometimes a ridiculous one, depending on how you use it. Too often, we think it's just a text to read, when in reality it's a real conversation guide, a support or even a framework.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:51] An executive who makes money. Because without qualified appointments, there's no business. And by the way, what is a qualified appointment?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:59] Excellent start. This also means differentiating it from a lead. A lead is a lead, a name, a number, a company, sometimes just a click on a page. These are known as Marketing Qualified Leads or MQLs. A qualified appointment is a whole other level: it's the right person, in the right company, with a sufficient level of interest to have a serious discussion. Insofar as this is what is expected, a qualified appointment can very well be defined as simply meeting the right person in the right company, regardless of whether they have a need or not.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:34] Exactly. And if he has a need, then we'll talk about Sales Qualified Leads or SQL. We've identified the right contact, we know he has a need, right here, right now.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:44] And for the more rigorous, we even talk about BANT, which stands for Budget, Authority, Need and Timing. He's got a budget, he's got the authority to sign, he's the one who decides, and he's got a need, so now's really the right time, so all the boxes are ticked. But don't get your hopes up: not all appointments are BANT on the first call.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:07] That's right! Now, a good meeting can be a presentation meeting, a challenge meeting or a competition meeting. In fact, the most important thing is to know what you're aiming for, before writing the script. We've already talked about this in previous episodes: an introductory appointment can be a qualified appointment insofar as it's an appointment with the right person, in the right company, and there's simply no need for it at the moment. On the other hand, it's very important to be able to position yourself. In this context, it's also a qualified appointment.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:34] And that's where it starts. What do I want to say at the end of this call? An exploratory appointment, an introduction to our service, or just permission to call back later?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:44] So, the first rule is that a script begins with its objective. Then we'll unfold the classics: a good introduction to capture attention and arouse interest. A good exploratory phase to check the suitability of the company and the contact person. A good proposal that will bridge the gap between their reality and our solution. And we end with a good deed: fixing the appointment and agreeing on a next step.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:10] Yes, but be careful, you can't build something like that on a corner of a table, you really need to prepare it in advance.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:15] Yes, yes, yes, yes. It starts with knowing your offer, its maturity, its life cycle, its market and its competitors. In fact, in our experience, to build a good script, you need to take 7 things into account. First, the product or service: is it complex, simple, well-known or not? Secondly, the life cycle: is it a product in launch, growth, maturity or decline? Third, the company: is it well known? Is it famous? Fourth, the profile of the target company: is it a small business? An SME? A big company? A government? Fifth, the people we're going to talk to: who are we going to talk to? You don't talk the same way to a finance manager, a marketing manager or an IT manager. Same thing if it's a manager, or rather a project manager, or a boss. So, as we said before, the goal, the actions to be taken, that remains the key element, bearing in mind that, in a telephone script, it's first and foremost about establishing the beginning of a relationship. This means that the person who is going to implement it also has a role to play: is it a junior, a senior, a technical salesperson, someone with a chatty personality? Does it master the product? Is he used to the area? These are the 7 things you really need to consider before you start writing a script.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:41] All right, there are 7 points, I hear you. And of course I've heard all the previous episodes of the podcast: how to make a good introduction, how to ask the right questions, storytelling, all that, all that... But at this stage, all this still doesn't tell me how I'm going to build my script in concrete terms?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:57] Well, I may surprise you, but I'd tend to say "Let it infuse", in other words: let yourself be carried away by all the information you've gathered from a good briefing, when you've asked all the questions related to the product and the market. On peut aussi aller creuser, faire une analyse SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities & Threats). What are the strengths we want to highlight? What weaknesses should you be prepared to defend? What opportunities are there for discussion? What are the potential threats and objections to anticipate? We can also carry out a PORTER analysis, to analyze the competitive environment and validate whether the company is indeed attractive and whether there are many competitors. Are there any new entrants? Are there any alternative products or solutions? What negotiating power do you have with suppliers and customers? In fact, all this can give us three approaches. Do I have a strategy of cost domination, a strategy of differentiation, or a strategy of focusing on a single niche?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:55] Ok, so all that will give you a good brew, fine, but you're going to make a script that's not going to be the same as mine, if I do, we're different. Are there any skills you need to build "the right script"? Is there a right way to do it?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:08] Two elements: skills, a little experience, but also techniques. The second element is attitude, which can also be translated into technique.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:16] Let's start with skills. What do you have in mind?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:19] So I see four necessary skills. First and foremost, we need to understand our customers: we need to know the industry, the challenges they face and the vocabulary they use. This obviously means asking the right questions, but first of all, you need to know which question to ask. So the second element is to be very synthetic, very clear, know how to get to the point, with clear, short, concise, impactful messages, so choose the right words, and structure your call well. With a short narrative, a good introduction, a good exploration, a good proposal and a projection of action. The third element is: sales listening, i.e. anticipating objections, formulating the right open-ended questions, planning variants according to the prospect's reaction, the different scenarios. And the fourth skill to always build a script well is to have a sense of persuasion, which can be integrated into the script. This means, for example, mobilizing evidence, concrete results and references. In fact, that's what I call true truths.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:28] True truths, that's a pleonasm, isn't it? What does it mean?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:31] So the real truths are the ones we can all agree on. An example of a general truism: a proverb, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush", "A jug in the water goes so far as to break". So, real truth is also statistics: "Yes, there are over 11 million inhabitants in Belgium, aren't there? And did you know that over 60% of all websites are actually in Flanders?". Another true truth: "Ben, you're obliged to charge VAT" laws, or scientific laws, action-reaction: "Any body immersed in a liquid is... Three little dots", you see, logic is really about being able to say "It's like...blah blah blah". In fact, we have an article on the subject on our website, where we list the 10 true truths that are directly applicable.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:16] Okay, so I realize that you really have to have a good general culture and find the truths that can be shared. In fact, we have to match the values we hold with those held by the other person.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:26] That's right, we're also talking about a shared observation. In any case, we agree on the subject, don't we?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:30] So we've just shared a true truth?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:32] And yes! Another trick is to use engaging, profit-oriented wording!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:38] Do you have any examples?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:39] So we can distinguish different cases depending on the time of the interview. Example: you want to make a good, profit-oriented teaser, what's the objective? It's about capturing attention from the very first seconds. Example: "I'm calling with a concrete idea for reducing your mobile costs, starting this quarter, without changing operator". Another idea: "I'm coming to you because we've just helped a company like yours regain 20% margin on its dormant stock. Can it be a topic?". Another idea: "You probably already manage your fleet very well, but I think you could save time and peace of mind". Or "In two minutes, I'll tell you if it's worth it for you, and if it's not, I'll hang up, okay?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:18] Ok for the intro, but do you also have examples of questions that are more engaging?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:22] Oh yes, there are plenty of them. The aim is always to have a dialogue, not a monologue. So when you ask questions, for example, we can go on a bit with different subjects: "When was the last time you reviewed your mobile stock management system" or "How long does it take you today to do a complete cost report? And if you could eliminate one administrative irritant this month, what would it be?". Or the question I actually love: "What's important to you about this?" you always get a lot of information, and the person you're talking to projects himself, and is with you.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:56] Yes, and there are also winning formulations once you've understood what will interest him. This is exactly the moment when we make the link between the prospect's situation and your solution.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:08] This is what I call value transition sentences. And I like to use CSAQ, C.S.A.Q. This means that you actually have characteristics that mean that it brings an advantage to the person you're talking to, and you end with a validation question. Example: "At PHCom we have senior market developers, which means: they can quickly understand your reality and that of your prospects. The advantage is that the discussion is directly much more open with the prospect, and that's what you're interested in, isn't it?", you see? CSAQ: a Feature, Means, Advantage is, and a final Question to validate.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:45] And, at the end of the interview, how do you go about getting an appointment without being overly oppressive? Should I always use engaging wording?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:54] Example: "Let's set aside fifteen minutes this week so we can see if it's worth it for you...". "I propose a short exchange. If it's relevant, we move forward, if not, we leave it at that". "It doesn't commit you to anything, just to getting to know each other, or you'll simply have a clear vision of what you can improve. And would Tuesday or Thursday suit you for a first exchange? Without obligation, of course!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:17] There are also phrases that can be used systematically. I know a few people who have their own habits...

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:23] And yes, little phrases that reassure and engage. Generally speaking, the aim is to lower defenses and make dialogue more fluid. So avoid jargon, avoid "blah blah blah", just give the figures, the concrete. Example of the style: "You decide whether it speaks to you or not. I'll let you be the judge, I'll show you, you see if it's useful, I'm not selling anything over the phone, I'm just offering a bit of light". As a reminder, at this point we're at a point where we need to come to a joint decision to take things further.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:55] Another thing about engaging formulas: there are always phrases that the salesperson uses and doesn't even realize it anymore. Example: "Just a little rendezvous, eh? It doesn't commit you to anything", and that's a flop, because it's a reheated phrase, all served up in the same way. The salesperson is no longer even aware that he or she is using them, it's becoming an ugly automatism. In short, it's all about techniques, but it's also, and above all, about the caller's attitude. Can't we put this in the script?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:20] Yes, you can! We can even integrate attitudes into the script, or at least drastically orient the speech around three key elements of attitude in fact. First element, empathy: this means focusing on the customer, avoiding a script about your company or your solution, but put yourself in the prospect's shoes. What's in it for him to listen to me for 30 seconds? If you think about it, you can build that into the script. The second element is honesty and naturalness: avoid empty marketing phrases, avoid false promises, use language that is oral, human and credible. Example: "I imagine that, like many facilities managers, you're also looking to make your life easier...", that's human. The third element is simplicity and adaptability: anything you write should be read aloud... And not read in your head. So leave room, too, for controlled improvisation and all the bounces you can get.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:17] If I'm a junior, or if I'm not as chatty as you, Mr. Performance, what do I do?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:22] Well, you're doing better. You do better because you prepare yourself, because you structure yourself, because you ask the right questions, because you project yourself. So a good script isn't just talk, it's business intelligence put into words. And I know you're a good saleswoman, so you have time to prepare.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:37] Speaking of intelligence, can we talk about AI? Do we use ChatGPT then?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:41] Yeah - Laughs - you feel a little fresher there. So, yes, if you give the AI the right information, it will be able to give you something. As long as you know how to correct it, because if you don't it's going to be pure "stinky sales talk", I can spot them 100 leagues away.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:57] Yeah, you do have to be careful. So, to sum up, to write a good script you need to: one, understand your target customer. Two, get to the point. Three: persuasion. Four, anticipate reactions. And, fifth and foremost, write to speak, not to read.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:15:15] And as we used to say, it takes attitude. The attitude of a customer-centric sales person, i.e. empathetic, honest, adaptable, everything we've just said. No bluster, no bullshit, just sincerity. You can write it in advance, but you'll have to bring it to life for real. Also, a touch of humor might help, but it really depends on the person. If you write a script with a sense of humor and the person using it doesn't buy it, you've lost the plot. Let's say I sell cell phones to businesses - not very sexy, is it?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:45] Ah non! And yet, the IT or purchasing manager we call is his or her day-to-day business. On the face of it, this should interest him, but since he receives eight calls a week on the subject, he's fed up too, so we have to do it another way.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:15:57] Exactly. And so we begin by anticipating the classic objection right from the introduction. "Bonjouurr", well, you've already heard it, it doesn't come across as "Bonjouurr". So, the good morning: "Hello, I know you're very busy on this subject, all the more reason to be direct. We offer a platform that gives you back control over your mobile fleet in just two clicks".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:16:18] And we adapt according to the person we're talking to. For example, an IT manager wants to save time and have an easy integration. For a Facility Manager, he'll be more interested in less worry for users. And for the purchasing manager, what he's looking for is guaranteed savings without a long contract.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:16:36] So we adapt. And the famous question that hits the nail on the head with a touch of real truth, for example: "According to statistics, the companies with the best telecom rates are those that review them every 18 months on average. Since when have you reviewed your mobile pricing to lower costs?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:16:51] But even the best script doesn't exist without mastered improvisation.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:16:57] In other words, the caller must be able to bounce back, listen and adjust his or her speech, while staying on course.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:17:03] And what is this cape? Well, it's a qualified appointment. That's always the primary objective.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:17:07] So let's summarize: a script is a good structure, not a prison. It must be written to speak to the other person, not to please oneself. It has to be tested, adjusted and experienced.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:17:21] Above all, it must be incarnate. Because you're the voice of your company, and it's your humanity more than your phrases that make people want to listen to you.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:17:30] And in the next episode, we'll be talking about how to make the right arguments, because that's where it all comes down to making the link between their needs and your solution.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:17:39] With tact, attentiveness and a hint of performance.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:17:42] And lots of harmony.

Michel Godart: [00:17:43] Stéphane, Camille, while we're on the subject of voice, entrepreneurship and enterprise, we've got some good news for listeners. In these podcasts, we've added a new series. With what? With the voice of our customers, PHCom's customers, who will share their experiences, their stories, their expertise, their failures and their successes above all, to give you and inspire you with even more sales and marketing tips. So, do us a favor, go to PHCom's YouTube channel too, make a like, a share, comment. And then you'll see that on the YouTube channel, on the videos, you have a little wheel that lets you activate subtitles, and soon - we've already started for one or two episodes - we'll be adding subtitles first in Dutch. Since our articles, even if the podcast is spoken in French, are submitted with a transcript in Dutch, English and French. Well, you'll find that in the video's subtitles. And we'll be adding Spanish and German, I think, Stéphane. See you all very soon, and then subscribe to the podcast, thanks for listening!

• [00:01:07] Podcast introduction
• [00:01:09] What does Kick and Rush do?
• [00:01:33] What is merchandising?
• [00:01:56] Product catalogue
• [00:02:13] What about the competition?
• [00:03:11] CSRD: how does it work in practice?
• [00:04:05] To be sustainable or not to be, really
• [00:04:35] Key differentiators from competitors
• [00:05:31] The values of Kick and Rush
• [00:06:02] Advice for young entrepreneurs
• [00:06:46] Failures and successes in lead generation
• [00:07:26] Sales onboarding and training
• [00:08:50] Which sales techniques are applied?
• [00:09:52] Adapting your pitch to your audience
• [00:10:31] Greatest commercial achievement
• [00:11:12] To grow or not to grow?
• [00:11:40] How do you find new clients?
• [00:13:48] Working with PHCom: time well saved?
• [00:14:38] Essential commercial skills today
• [00:15:14] Next sales ambition
• [00:15:49] Why contact headquarters directly?
• [00:16:31] Any story to share about PHCom?
• [00:17:39] How to maintain trust with clients and prospects
• [00:18:05] Describe PHCom in three words
• [00:18:16] Episode closing

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance and Harmony" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance and Harmony" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share with you our best practices in finding new customers for companies in the business-to-business sector.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can watch every episode on the PHCom .be website. P.H.C. OM, and also on all good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also make an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom .be

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:07] Hello Thibault.

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:01:08] Hello Camille

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:09] We're delighted to welcome you to our podcast today for the continuation of our episodes. So tell us, what do you do for a living, what's Kick and Rush?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:01:16] Professionally, of course. Kick and Rush is a merchandising company. In French, le cadeau d'affaires, and so we help companies to promote either their brand to the outside world, or, since the covid, also promote the company internally, i.e. to employees.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:33] What is merchandising? Take a gourd, for example, and put a company logo on it, right? Or is it a bit... I think what I'm saying is a bit trivialized, but what is it really?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:01:41] No, no, that's exactly it. In any object that's used on a daily basis, on which we'll put a logo, we'll put a first name, we'll put a message, and we'll try to communicate with this product over time, we'll stay close to people, to promote again: an idea, a product, a brand.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:56] And what type of product do you use?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:01:58] So there are different categories. There are some categories that are working really, really hard, like textiles, anything gourmet these days, anything technological. But there are also products that are more mouth-watering, tableware, so it includes a whole range of products that are useful on a day-to-day basis.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:13] I presume there's a lot of competition in this sector. How does it work and what sets you apart?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:02:19] There are many of us, and different companies cater to different sectors and audiences. We specialize in very large companies that want to communicate on a European level, in terms of their product range. Who, for example, will ask us to create a website for all their subsidiaries. Let me give you an example: a European company, based in Belgium or France, will ask us to create a collection, and all its employees throughout Europe will be able to order the products in small quantities. These products will be: one, bought in bulk so there are savings for buyers. Secondly, you can be sure that the brand name is respected, that the logo is printed correctly, embroidered correctly, etc. And thirdly, we're able to give them all the carbon emission calculations, an ecoscore, which is essential for the CSRD, which is therefore a European directive that is really the issue today for marketers and procurement.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:11] While we're on the subject of CSRD, how does it work in practice?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:03:15] So we developed a tool to calculate carbon emissions by product. This means: we can give our customers the carbon emission, the ecological cost of producing a product, for a specific action or throughout the year. What does it mean? This means that, alongside the product's economic cost, we can also give the product's ecological cost. So I'll give you an example: someone - we were talking about water bottles - wants to choose a water bottle, and we're going to offer them two or three water bottles at different prices, both economical and ecological. And he'll be able to choose between a product made in Europe from a plastic material, a product made in Asia from a completely recycled material, and a third product which may be a mix of the two. And sometimes it's very surprising to see the ecological cost of a product, because you don't really realize that transport is involved, which isn't all that important.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:05] That's what I was going to say, sometimes the difference is obvious?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:04:08] So sometimes it's obvious. We have a very good example of a campaign starting with PHCom at the moment, where we come up with two products, address sustainability managers, and simply show them two pens. One is made of wood, bamboo, and the other of plastic, and we ask him which is more environmentally friendly. And of course, it's the recycled plastic one that's made in China, and so it's used to start having a dialogue about the whole ecological thinking, the carbon footprint of a company through its merchandising.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:35] And this, I presume, is where you really set yourself apart from the competition?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:04:39] So we're all trying in our industry to work on sustainability because, just a few years ago, our media, what we call product media, was seen as a polluting medium. Today, it's a medium that's made enormous efforts, so the whole industry is working on sustainable development, so we're all trying, in our own way, to do our bit. When we talk to marketing managers, we also talk more and more about the ecological cost compared to other media. So we realize that, today, to offer a gourd to someone, the ecological contact cost, which means: we divide the ecological cost by the number of times the product is seen, where the logo is seen, is much lower than an advert on a social network, on TV or anywhere else. And so we've really, in our industry, completely changed our approach to show that merchandising is ecological and that it respects the environment much more than other media.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:31] We're talking about the environment, we're talking about ecology, and these are pretty important issues today. So what does Kick and Rush stand for? Let's talk about ecology. Are there any others that come to mind?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:05:43] At Kick and Rush, respect has been the leitmotiv of the company's development for 30 years. And ecology being one of them: a respect for ecology, a respect for our future generations, and so on. But it also means respect for the customer and respect for our employees. Well, we have six values, but this is the most essential one in our company at Kick and Rush.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:02] What's your advice? Would you give it to young people or people who want to go into the same line of work as you?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:06:07] So I'm going to take the liberty of expanding and not just saying in my line of work, if that's okay with you Camille. I started this company as a student, in parallel with my marketing studies, and I don't think I'd recommend it today to young people who want to get started. I'd suggest they train at other companies, train in other sectors, go and see what's on offer left and right. There's no age limit for starting out, but I think one of the fundamental values is to have a good education. When you're just out of school or very young, but sometimes you can supplement your training with work experience, and that's the advice I'd give. You can wait five years to develop a business, I think there's plenty of time.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:46] Now we're going to talk about the commercial aspect, which is important: you have to find customers, you have to keep the business going. Could you tell us about a setback, or a positive experience you've had on a day-to-day basis in terms of finding new customers and new leads?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:06:59] I think the biggest failure at Kick and Rush in terms of finding new leads is abandoning those leads. Over the years, when I look at the sales history, I realize that a whole series of customers have disappeared. Why did they disappear? Quite simply because they didn't order for a year or two for X, Y reasons, and we weren't diligent enough to continue, we didn't set up computer tools for reminders, and so I think the greatest failure of Kick and Rush is to have part of its database simply disappear.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:26] Someone who starts out with you as dirty people, because there are dirty people in your company, how does it work, are there several of you? Anyway, you'll tell me more later about the number of teams, the number of salespeople you have, but how do things work? How do you train a new salesperson, how do you set everything up with him or her?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:07:40] So at Kick and Rush there are about ten account managers, and we're organized into four segments. We have four customer segments, and we offer different services depending on the size of the customer. And so a salesman, depending on his experience, will start in one segment or another. A young salesman will obviously start out in a segment that's a little easier with our typical SME and association segment. A salesperson who is 40 years old, with experience in the sector, may be more likely to focus on the strategic customer segment for the company. Training obviously depends on the salesperson's level of knowledge, and I'm not talking about the level of knowledge of the industry, because that can be learned quite quickly, but really on the level of knowledge he or she has in terms of customer follow-up, developing opportunities, etc., etc., etc. So either account managers come from outside, or many come from within the company too, having worked in sales support or various other functions, and then at some point an opportunity opens up within the company. As always, positions are first opened internally, and the opportunity seized by a person, and therefore the training, will depend at that point on his or her background. Maybe we'll have to train him typically in sales techniques, or maybe we'll have to train him in products and services, since he'll have sales techniques.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:50] We're talking about sales techniques. So what do you actually do?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:08:53] Kick and Rush offers ongoing training courses for account managers. Earlier we were talking about sustainability, and I think the last training course they had less than six months ago was actually two full days on knowledge of standards, knowledge of how to calculate whether a product is less polluting than another, and eco-score training, so that's more technical I'd say. And then there were all the training courses on customer follow-up and development, because that's what account managers are asked to do. I'll explain later how we're organized for prospects and customer development. So in a company there are two things: we grow by acquiring new customers, but we also grow by developing our customers, obviously by not losing customers, right? But also customer development, because as I was saying earlier, we're talking to the marketing manager for the external side, but also perhaps to HR for the internal side. And so, once we're working with a company, with HR I'll say, who wants to make a gift for their employees, well we'll obviously try to work with the marketing manager and so we'll spread our, weave our web like a beautiful spider and try to reach out to all the different departments.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:52] Do you talk differently to a marketing manager than to a HR manager?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:09:55] Of course, of course. And you speak differently to Procurement than to a Sustainability Manager. The speeches will be adapted, the content is the same, but we'll talk differently, yes, of course. We speak our interlocutor's language, and maybe we're people who are specialized in discussing marketing with companies in FMCG or cosmetics, for example. And then there are others who are more specialized and more attracted to the banking, service or automotive sectors. And so a marketing manager at Deloitte or KPMG is approached differently than a marketing manager at L'Oréal or InBev, for example.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:31] Adapting your approach is very important, and we see this every day in our prospecting activities at PHCom. What's your proudest business achievement? Is there anything you can think of?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:10:42] I'd say the greatest achievement is to be here after 30 years and to have continued to develop, to have 80 people, to have 80 families behind kick and Rush. It's through the trust that our customers have in Kick and Rush that, in the end, it's that we work well and the customer stays. We have customers who have been loyal for more than fifteen years, I think, and these are big, big companies that are canvassed I think every week by our colleagues. They're still with us, so that makes me proud. I tell myself that all my colleagues are doing their jobs and can be proud of what we've achieved, yes.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:12] And you continue to grow and evolve, I think that's the most important thing, in a society where

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:11:16] We're very much in the "Do we always have to grow and do more?" discussion. But yes, it's an ambition for us, we like to grow, we like challenges. We're in the process of developing the French market enormously, and we have two acquisitions coming up in the next few weeks, but these are challenges, because ultimately, when you stagnate, I think you fall asleep. And when we start to fall asleep, our colleagues continue to develop, so that's the beginning of the end.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:36] Never give up, that's it!

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:11:38] Jamais, jamais, jamais. Of course.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:40] We were talking about maintaining customers over the long term. That's what's so complicated, I think. It's a day-to-day challenge. What do you do to find new customers? So you find them, then we know that the challenge is to maintain them. But what's the first step?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:11:55] You need to find new customers, but you also need to reactivate dormant ones. And so, with regard to these customers, prospects and dormant customers, we realized that the sales people weren't very assiduous. In other words, as you know, there are salespeople who are more of a farmer and others who are more of a hunter. In any case, a salesman likes to go out and find sales, he likes to develop and so on. So when you have a customer who doesn't respond much, or doesn't respond enough, or who isn't very active, well, the sales person will naturally move on to another contact, and he'll move on to contacts, customers who will order more, or who will have more interaction with him. And so we've done all this prospecting and customer redevelopment work that was a bit on the back burner. It's true that it's a long-term job and, generally speaking, a sales person works in the short term. He'll be more attracted by answering a customer who wants to sign an order form than by starting to follow up five emails with prospects. And so, over the last few years, we've decided to set up a unit that really specializes in prospecting. So, with people who specialize in lead development, we're really talking about Hunter, aren't we? These are people who are very happy to go and sign a deal and develop it, but in the long term they're also very happy to pass the lead on to another salesperson who will develop it. But we were lacking in telephone prospecting and follow-up, meaning that we had developed a whole series of tools through our CRM to send emails, make posts on social networks about certain people we were interested in, and at some point we had to call. And it's very, very specific, which is why we called in PHCom, to get people who are very professional and who have the time to relaunch five, six, seven times, ten times if need be, and who won't give up. Because I think that one of the essential elements in prospecting, once you've defined your target and got the right message, is to keep going, to never give up, because it may be in six months or a year, or a year and a half that you'll finally get an appointment. And for this long-term work, I think we needed a consulting firm to help us.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:48] We're going to talk about the cost of working with PHCom. Do you think PHCom has saved you time?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:13:56] Above all, it has enabled us to avoid wasting time and keep my teams motivated about the added value they can bring. Because a very good salesperson who's going to be very good at appointments and who's going to develop a product line for a customer isn't especially the one who's the most assiduous, and who's going to be the best at the first telephone contact. Quite simply, young people today, I'm not sure they're very comfortable calling a contact they don't know on a mobile number, and so they tend to send messages and send e-mails and hide behind WhatsApp (Camille de Meeûs: To get around what) that's it, that's it. Anything to avoid taking a live shot of the door closing, because that's never fun. And so a company like PHCom saves us time in the sense that we don't lose any, if I may say so, and we keep our teams' energy on the real added value they have.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:38] What sales skills do you feel are essential today, both in working with PHCom and with your sales team?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:14:45] Well first of all it's empathy and loving contact, I think that's the first thing. We need to be sure of what we're offering, because I think that today we're no longer in the business of offering products. Well, maybe that was the case 20 or 30 years ago, but today we need to believe in what we're offering. I think there are two skills that are essential for me: the empathy I was talking about and tenacity. Because after all, you have to be able to hold on, you have to be able to bounce back, you have to be able to keep going. There's no such thing as a customer you meet for the first time and after ten minutes you walk out with a substantial order form. That's impossible.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:14] What's your next "sales target" ambition? With PHCom or with your teams?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:15:19] Here, in the very short term, we have a huge prospecting campaign underway, focusing on the CSRD we were talking about and the sustainable side. And we're going to try to get into companies with our USP, our Unique Selling Proposition, which is to have this carbon calculator and eco score on every product. And so our ambition is to get into companies we haven't yet managed to work with, thanks to this aspect of the environmental side, but above all of proof and figures and data, to really develop our customer base in the years to come.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:49] I understand that your prospecting is geared more towards headquarters. What's the point of contacting them directly? What's in it for Kick and Rush?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:15:58] But often, when a European company's head office is contacted, the European marketing manager is there, the procurement manager is there, so we have all the right people on the spot. And by contacting the person in charge directly, we'll be able to have a presence in all the countries that are either NPIA or NPA, all at once. At Kick and Rush, we exported to 92 countries last year, so we can't afford to go to 40, 50, 60 countries to prospect. There are language barriers, and time-slot barriers too, with different schedules. So we're trying to find the head of marketing and procurement at European level.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:16:31] We're going to finish, very slowly (Thibault Fontaine: But it's going fast, isn't it?), because we're coming to the end anyway, it's going very fast. Is there any particular story or anecdote you'd like to share with us from your collaboration with PHCom? I think we've been working together for a year, a year and a half now. Is there anything you can think of that you'd like to share with us?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:16:48] We started working with PHCom... But maybe it's because I met Stéphane ten years ago, Stéphane Depaepe, but we've never worked together. But eight years ago, I remembered that I'd had a good contact and that I'd liked his speech. And so I think that beyond the success and beyond all that can be said about our collaboration over the past year and a half, what I'd like to pass on as a message is: you have to work on the long term, you have to work on the long term because you never know what it's going to become. A customer can come on his own afterwards, and that's what we did at Kick and Rush at the very beginning, I mean, and still now, we're very focused on Scout leaders and Student Circle leaders. Why? Because in ten years' time, they'll be our customers. And so if they have a good experience today, well, they'll have a good experience and they'll come back to us in ten years' time. And so I think it's an illustration of what happened with PHCom, you always have to work on the medium-long term, and not look at the short term and say "I've got to sign, I've got to have something for the next month or the next few weeks".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:17:39] Much has been said about this long term. What's the key to keeping that trust with customers and prospects we find for Kick and Rush?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:17:46] I think it's important to be able to say no to customers. You have to be able to say "I don't think what you want to do is right for you". It's all about advice, and understanding a brand's and a customer's philosophy so as to be able to advise them as objectively as possible. You have to be able to say no and explain that there are risks involved. And if he wants to take the risk, he can take it and then, uh... But he'll be right back!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:18:05] Last question: can you define your collaboration with PHCom in three words?

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:18:10] So I'd say the three words that come immediately to mind: confidence, tenacity and honesty.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:18:16] It's very beautiful, to conclude, thank you in any case Thibaud. And all the best for the future.

Thibaut Fontaine: [00:18:20] Thank you Camille, goodbye.