• [00:01:07] What exactly does Oniryx do?
• [00:01:43] Does Oniryx implement CRM systems?
• [00:03:07] How does collective intelligence work at Oniryx?
• [00:05:33] How can we preserve the human role alongside AI?
• [00:06:54] What role do consultants play when working with clients?
• [00:07:52] What contribution did Oniryx make to the development of MyMinfin?
• [00:08:17] Fully bespoke IT solutions?
• [00:08:56] Do people remain at the heart of these solutions?
• [00:08:58] How can we address concerns about the future of jobs?
• [00:09:48] How does Oniryx stand out from the competition?
• [00:10:34] How does Oniryx generate leads?
• [00:12:39] How do you build long-term client loyalty?
• [00:15:36] A way of working that is the opposite of micromanagement?
• [00:16:12] How do you find your place in a horizontal organisation?
• [00:17:23] What are the business development ambitions for 2027 and 2028?
• [00:18:32] What advice would you give someone starting out in IT?
• [00:20:22] Why did Oniryx turn to PHCom?
• [00:21:34] Does the collaboration save time?
• [00:22:36] How do you surround yourself with the right expertise?
• [00:23:11] How would you describe the collaboration with PHCom in three words?
• [00:23:37] Why resume the collaboration after a break?
• [00:25:34] What can we wish Oniryx for the future?

[00:00:13] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial" podcast, produced by PH Com in the "transforma bxl" studio with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

[00:00:23] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial" podcast is designed for marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

[00:00:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Every month, we share best practices in acquiring new clients for businesses operating in business-to-business.

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[00:00:55] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The voicemail is always open for you to leave us a message, and we will be delighted to reply.

[00:01:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by visiting phcom dot be.

[00:01:06] Nadia Ben Jelloun: See you soon.

What exactly does Oniryx do?

[00:01:07] Camille de Meeûs: Hello Mathieu (Mathieu Baugniet: Hello), hello Christophe (Christophe Patris: Hello Camille). We are thrilled to welcome you today to the PHCom podcast. You work for the company Oniryx; tell me a bit more about this company. What do you do specifically?

[00:01:19] Christophe Patris: Oniryx is an IT consulting firm, part of the Blacksheep group, and we also do management consulting. So those are our two main lines of development: IT, where we have experts in various fields such as artificial intelligence, systems integration, and bespoke solution development. And alongside that, we also do change management support, managerial coaching, and management training focusing on new management practices.

Does Oniryx implement CRM systems?

[00:01:43] Camille de Meeûs: If I understand correctly, you implement CRMs in companies, is that right?

[00:01:47] Mathieu Baugniet: Yes, well, I'll let Christophe speak to that. But maybe just a quick word of context, we were founded in 2008, so we've just about reached our age of majority. And it's true that originally, Oniryx is a company that was founded by two or three people, including Geoffroy Fauveaux, who is the founder. For us, right from the start, it was about doing IT a little differently. So, we'll really go into more detail with Christophe about the services we offer, because today there are obviously far more services than before, especially with AI. But back then, the idea was really to create an IT consulting firm with consultants, in a somewhat disruptive way. So for instance, we are organized around collective intelligence, and more specifically at Oniryx, self-management. So that means we give colleagues a lot of autonomy, which allows them to thrive. We also focus heavily on training. Even back then, we offered ten days of training to each consultant with a fairly substantial budget, which allowed people to stay up to speed since IT is constantly evolving.

[00:02:40] Camille de Meeûs: Constantly.

[00:02:41] Mathieu Baugniet: Constantly, but even faster today. And then there are two other things that are also part of our DNA: the feedback culture, and everything related to the package process, meaning people discuss their salaries among themselves. And that allowed us to have a different approach to the IT market, sometimes with profiles of self-taught people who are true experts in their field. The best proof—because people often tell us, "Yeah, but collective intelligence and all that is a bit peculiar, etc. Because there's..."

How does collective intelligence work at Oniryx?

[00:03:07] Camille de Meeûs: And how does it work? What is it in practical terms, so our listeners can understand, because we've heard of collective intelligence before, but it can mean different things?

[00:03:14] Mathieu Baugniet: The main thing for us is that we try to have a flatter hierarchy, meaning everyone has a right to speak. So there you go. Now at Igroove, which is the second company that was created afterwards, that's more participatory management, so everyone has a voice, but ultimately a decision is still made from above. For us, the idea is really that everything emerges from our colleagues. Well, it's sometimes very challenging, but it remains very interesting, and the best proof that it works—I'll let Christophe add to this later since he's experienced it even longer than I have—for example, we've been recognized at the Trends Gazelles for the province of Namur on seven occasions, and we won the title of Ambassador in 2023. We're not just saying it for the sake of saying it...

[00:03:51] Camille de Meeûs: No, but it means (Mathieu Baugniet: Great, we won an award) that there is real work behind it and that your way of operating is also bearing fruit.

[00:03:55] Mathieu Baugniet: Exactly, that's it. So actually, the idea was to say, "We also know how to do business in a way that is, let's say, different and disruptive." So maybe I'll let Christophe add to that.

[00:04:04] Christophe Patris: Well, I think you've already provided a lot of information regarding collective intelligence. So we also used a whole series of mechanisms, sociocratic processes, etc. Decision-making, setting up working groups with defined work scopes. Decisions are made collectively, and responsibility is also assumed collectively for the decisions that are taken. The entire life of the company runs through working groups, while always maintaining accountability for the expertise present.

[00:04:29] Mathieu Baugniet: And if I had to give an example, my colleague might tell us, "Look, I'd like to organize an event in two weeks, invite all the colleagues to play board games." We tell her, "OK, no problem, the company is even willing to give you a small budget, but if you take the initiative, you manage the project from A to Z." And that's what's a bit different with us, so it's "No problem, you do it. But if there's a problem, you're the one who has to take ownership of it."

[00:04:50] Camille de Meeûs: You make room for creativity and you try to give everyone the same (Christophe Patris: Yes, exactly) space, we could kind of...

[00:04:54] Christophe Patris: Exactly. In fact, the idea (Camille de Meeûs: OK, that's exactly the principle) is, here we took a nice process, "Okay, we're doing an event, we're organizing an event," but of course it's also in business creation, development, IT solutions, creating new concepts, directly integrating new methodologies. For example, we were having difficulties at a client's, we realized that around us, projects were struggling to emerge, to get off the ground, with very, very strong human difficulties, we realized that agile alone wasn't enough. And so we implemented a whole system that we called the BlackSheep method to, precisely, place people at the center of development. Well, here we are, we use a feature of our collective intelligence in service of our client, with the client's permission, of course.

How can we preserve the human role alongside AI?

[00:05:33] Camille de Meeûs: That's very interesting, I'll bounce off of that, you talk about the human factor, but you are in a sector where the human element risks being forgotten with everything involving artificial intelligence, etc. How do you perceive that today? How do you manage it?

[00:05:42] Christophe Patris: In fact, we noticed it a very, very long time ago because we are very, very active and we closely monitor technology, which means we do a tremendous amount of tech watching, both at the level of the directors, the founder, myself, and the technical teams. We have meeting areas where we discuss precisely what the future will look like. And to answer your question very specifically, two years ago, we already launched an augmented intelligence campaign. So we are not talking about artificial intelligence or human intelligence, or one versus the other, but rather connecting these two types of intelligence available in the field to boost the business. And so that is our main focus for the coming years: turning that innovative idea we had two years ago into reality—fully integrating artificial intelligence with human intelligence to create augmented intelligence, but also to generate value. What we care about is creating value, not cutting costs, but simply creating value from this existing mix. And so we are working immensely on that part right now.

[00:06:36] Camille de Meeûs: So augmented intelligence is artificial intelligence plus human intelligence.

[00:06:41] Christophe Patris: It is human intelligence backed by all the mechanisms and the full power of artificial intelligence, which has made a huge leap over the last two years. And actually, the idea is to benefit from these tools and truly make them a partner for our consultants, you know!

What role do consultants play when working with clients?

[00:06:54] Camille de Meeûs: Well, speaking of consultants, are your consultants salespeople within the company? So are they the ones you send to your clients to perform the migrations, how does it actually work at that point?

[00:07:02] Christophe Patris: In business, they always say that the consultant is the primary salesperson, and that is just as true for us. No, our consultants are there to help our clients develop solutions, whether they engage them on a time-and-materials basis, a fixed-price contract, or whatever—what matters to us is a commitment to delivery. Our reputation is built on the fact that we deliver the solutions we propose to our clients, and we deliver them with initiative and drive in carrying out the mission. And so we are often very, very, very precise in terms of quality, very, very, very precise in terms of scheduling, and very, very precise in terms of budget. And we manage to ensure that the coordination of these three elements is always prominent for our client, or at least always present.

[00:07:41] Mathieu Baugniet: I can perhaps give a few success stories. Historically, we've worked for major public services, for instance MyMinfin, well that's an application in which teams of ours really participated very actively.

What contribution did Oniryx make to the development of MyMinfin?

[00:07:52] Camille de Meeûs: In the design phase?

[00:07:52] Christophe Patris: In the creation. A few years ago now, since you've been filing your personal income tax electronically for several years, well, there were people, consultants from Oniryx who took part in setting up those platforms. And to answer your question, we specialize not specifically in CRM, but in platforms tailored specifically to our clients. So if the client needs a CRM or needs a custom development like My-something, right? MyMinfin, MyOres, here the latest one.

Fully bespoke IT solutions?

[00:08:17] Camille de Meeûs: It goes beyond simple implementation actually, it's custom-made, could we put it that way too?

[00:08:21] Christophe Patris: We do completely custom-made work, yes (Camille de Meeûs: Ok). Yes, yes absolutely.

[00:08:24] Mathieu Baugniet: Well, it's true that more recently, one of our successes here was the MyOres portal, we're already on version two, I think. So, yes, that's the kind of application we build, and it's true that now we have also brought on board services from AI specialists in particular. And so, well, that's a market we're going to have to tackle a bit, but we're already established there, you know. And it's true that for us, regarding AI, just to build on what Christophe was saying, it's true that we see it as a tool. For us, the human aspect, precisely, all these IT professionals, these consultants who really have a lot of experience now, well, that's precisely where the added value lies. So it has to remain a tool, and the human behind it needs to be able to offer something.

Do people remain at the heart of these solutions?

[00:08:56] Camille de Meeûs: And still be around?

[00:08:57] Christophe Patris: Ah, very, very concretely. Yes, yes.

How can we address concerns about the future of jobs?

[00:08:58] Camille de Meeûs: That's the goal too, I imagine (Mathieu Baugniet: Yes), to say "Humans shouldn't fade into oblivion", because that's the thing, it's scary today. You guys are pioneers, you saw this coming a long time ago, but what would you like to say to people who say, "Gosh, tomorrow my job won't be here anymore, actually, what am I going to do about that?"

[00:09:11] Christophe Patris: Some jobs may indeed disappear, or even be completely transformed, but artificial intelligence should also be seen as a tool for economic rebound. We often see the negative consequences for certain professions in certain contexts; that would really be too narrow-minded, we have to look at artificial intelligence as a driving force for value creation. And if we adopt that perspective, we will realize that it's going to open up business opportunities that we didn't have in the past. It's not just about doing cost reduction, cost reduction; if we look at artificial intelligence merely to cut costs and therefore reduce staff, etc., I think we're heading down a negative path. It has to be seen as value creation, and we have been integrating that into our concepts for two years now.

How does Oniryx stand out from the competition?

[00:09:48] Camille de Meeûs: I imagine there is quite a lot of competition in your sector. What is it like on that front? How do you differentiate yourselves in practice?

[00:09:53] Christophe Patris: Well, we aren't afraid of taking on large, established groups that have massive resources, precisely because we are somewhat disruptive, as you will have gathered throughout our conversation here; we are disruptive in our approach to artificial intelligence. But artificial intelligence is just one element; there are plenty of other things hitting the market that we are already reflecting on, which I won't list here. And our competitors, well, they are experiencing the same thing as us; they are also going through a digital transformation, except that digital transformation is applying to them. Which, for the past thirty years, had never happened in the IT sector. And so it is about benefiting from this entire new technological approach. And once again, here we are talking about artificial intelligence, focusing heavily on it, but there are many other things coming that are going to be disruptive, and all competing companies really need to start thinking differently.

How does Oniryx generate leads?

[00:10:34] Camille de Meeûs: Now we are really going to get down to business on the commercial side: how does it work on a day-to-day basis for you? How do you generate leads? What do you have in place?

[00:10:43] Christophe Patris: There is a bit of business confidentiality involved in what we're discussing here, but as we were saying, we talked about artificial intelligence, we talked about augmented intelligence for us—well, augmented intelligence is at the marketing level, where we have completely overhauled how we generate leads. So lead management has been completely redesigned with this integration of artificial intelligence serving our marketers, right? There is someone present in the room here who can attest to that. The same goes for opportunity management, value creation, and drafting our proposals too, with this augmented value that artificial intelligence brings us in terms of quality and schedule management as well. And ultimately in cost, because what also interests the client is the cost.

[00:11:18] Mathieu Baugniet: And then what we also realize is that, well, what has also evolved a bit at times—which is why, working in communications myself, well, we also help the sales department—is that it's great nowadays to be on social media; well, obviously we have to respond to public tenders so some things remain confidential, but we've also realized that now we go out into the field much more, we go to trade shows like Municipalia, we used to go to developer events a lot. We go to a lot more evening networking events and, in fact, by talking to people, we understand their needs much more easily and we obviously feel there's an urgency right now, since everyone is getting moving, especially with AI, which everyone keeps talking about. But it's true that human contact remains important, and going to these kinds of events is really important for us because we can genuinely talk with people and say, "Ah well, we know you." Before, you know, we sometimes stayed maybe a bit on our own home turf—we're in Wallonia, we're well known. But, you know, we had our long-standing clients, and so on. Here, the idea is rather to branch out, so I'm thinking of a recent contact we had with Dreamwall, which is a little Walloon gem offering a lot of things; well, it's true that they want to transform themselves too. And it's great because what I notice is that I used to tell myself, "Well, at 43 years old, okay, you already have an established career," but you can feel that they, with AI, want to reinvent themselves in a new way by doing a lot more video mapping in museums. And for us, well, that's a sector we wouldn't have even thought of entering a year ago. And so, quite ironically, it's really human contact once again when we go to these kinds of events that allows us to perhaps open up to other private companies.

How do you build long-term client loyalty?

[00:12:39] Camille de Meeûs: In your sector, I find that what is stimulating is that you are constantly evolving (Christophe Patris: Yes) all the time, whether in customer relations because (Mathieu Baugniet: It can be exhausting sometimes) of what you develop. Yes, yes, you also have to keep up with that, I mean, it must be fast-paced (Mathieu Baugniet: Yes), your days... But I think that stimulating aspect must give so much energy and motivation. And speaking of which, how do you build client loyalty over the long term? I assume that processes at your end, well, take time: discussing, seeing what really needs to be put in place, how does it work at that level?

[00:13:05] Christophe Patris: So, as I've already mentioned, we build client loyalty through the quality of our deliverables. So we always tend to say, "We're actually a delivery company." That means when a client trusts us and signs a contract with us, well, they know—or in any case they will get the results of what they signed for. And so we get feedback, we conduct surveys like any traditional company, we run satisfaction surveys, we see if our clients are satisfied. Our clients have been renewing their commitment with us for years. Oniryx's very first client is still a client 20 years later, which means client retention is practically part of our DNA. But how? Qualitatively, by supporting our clients, understanding their needs, anticipating their needs, and conducting tech monitoring for them. So we've been talking about AI for years, we talk about many other upcoming IT topics, but also about change management, etc. And I'd also like to build on change management, specifically regarding our DNA: five years ago, we actually noticed that our clients were having difficulties. Some clients, some prospects were struggling with how they envisioned management or change, or how they integrated change into their business. And we realized that by providing IT solutions, we were often the reason for change. And with our DNA based on collective intelligence, feedback, our sociocratic processes, etc., and all this mechanics of managerial support and change management support. In fact, we set everything up, including a supplementary service that allows us to have a stronger impact. That is to say, when we deliver an IT solution, we can also take charge of its entire lifecycle and its integration into the company. And so it's a much broader framework that we offer to our clients. And that's also how we retain our clients.

[00:14:40] Mathieu Baugniet: There's that, and then there's also the fact that we follow up with them, we organize a lot of events, and we also have people—I'm thinking of a colleague, Carole—we really have people who are great listeners, and that's important. Also because of our size, we're more of an SME with 150 people, but being able to also have a different corporate culture, we see that our colleagues don't always react like others. You know, sometimes they run into attitudes from people who, well, will just do the bare minimum. Well, that's not at all in our DNA; listening attentively is super important, and then hosting events, following up, basically making sure the relationship is healthy. And our size allows us to do that too, you know.

[00:15:14] Christophe Patris: So we have working groups that also focus on customer satisfaction, feedback as you mentioned, with specific colleagues who manage the account, who do account management with our clients; that's super important for us. To really understand the need, to anticipate—once again, I often repeat the same thing—but to really understand the need and position ourselves as tech experts to address those specific needs. And so, yeah, providing an added service to our clients.

A way of working that is the opposite of micromanagement?

[00:15:36] Camille de Meeûs: That's great because we can hear so much passion when you speak, and I think to myself, "More companies should operate like you do." I mean, you are really the polar opposite of micromanagement, wouldn't you say?

[00:15:46] Mathieu Baugniet: If I may jump in, because coming from my background, I spent 20 years in journalism where it was sometimes very hierarchical, very structured. I know I've talked about this with Christophe and Geoffroy, our founder, so I won't give any spoilers, but... When I first arrived, you shouldn't think that everything is rosy; there are other challenges. And for instance, having a flat organization can sometimes be very challenging because, speaking from my own experience, everyone wants to weigh in on communication in the company. At first, it was very tough for me; usually, you have the comms manager saying, "You do it like this, like this, like this," but here, everyone has their own little opinion...

How do you find your place in a horizontal organisation?

[00:16:12] Camille de Meeûs: Difficult to hold your ground?

[00:16:13] Mathieu Baugniet: Not really, but it's just that everyone has an opinion, and sometimes it's expressed in a way... So there you have it, so there are other challenges, but it's true that it brings—personally speaking, if I just look at my own case—it brings an openness. And then you're allowed to do things, to take the initiative on things, and that's really very enjoyable. A simple example: we created a studio in our manor—originally a TV studio—that we turned into a podcast studio, so I'm happy because for once, I'm...

[00:16:35] Camille de Meeûs: On the other side

[00:16:35] Mathieu Baugniet: I'm on the other side. But there you go, that's an initiative I wouldn't have been allowed to do, perhaps in a more conventional company. It's true that it's nice because, when you have some experience and so on, well, it's great to also be able to propose other things and have people tell you, "Well, go for it, but you take full ownership."

[00:16:49] Christophe Patris: And so what is illustrated here in one specific area, which is communication and marketing for us, with the creation of the studio and various other elements, is completely true for every aspect of daily life. So whether it's in life, events, practical office life, etc. But it goes much further than that; it also applies to, "Well, what IT or change management initiatives can we implement?". For instance, there is an initiative currently being rolled out to combine human intelligence, the intelligence provided by artificial intelligence, and managerial management practices with all the existing plans, and to coordinate all of that into a single solution. It's a grassroots initiative.

What are the business development ambitions for 2027 and 2028?

[00:17:23] Camille de Meeûs: Honestly, it fascinates me. The way you talk about it and everything you offer, it's really refreshing to hear people who have ideas that are a bit out of the ordinary, I think. To get back a bit to the commercial aspect, what are your next objectives, the next ambitions that are important to you? Right now, we are in May 2026. Is there anything you can share with us for 2027–2028?

[00:17:42] Christophe Patris: Of course not, and so no! Laughter - That's humor! That is also a characteristic trait, humor is always present in our company as well. Yes, we clearly are, we specialize in the public sector, and we have had our foundation in that area for nearly 20 years. Without giving any spoilers, well, we are moving toward diversification; we have already started that journey. We are also moving toward the diversification of the services offered. We offer more than just IT for IT's sake or bespoke developments; rather, we take all these augmented intelligence concepts and deploy them in the field. And so our goal for next year is growth based on new managerial and IT practices over the next 3 years. So, there is a digital transformation with a new sector approach also being put in place. Always consolidating the foundation is the classic reflex, and we have to keep that because our clients are satisfied and we need to keep our clients. That is obviously the foundation, but we are moving toward a diversification of our portfolio.

What advice would you give someone starting out in IT?

[00:18:32] Camille de Meeûs: What advice would you give today to someone starting out in your sector?

[00:18:35] Christophe Patris: As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there really is a shift with the new IT practices coming in. And I mean new practices, artificial intelligence, and others. I strongly emphasize, it is not only that coming down the line. I would say that, if a student were starting their studies in this field—the IT field—I would tell them to think carefully about already integrating all these tools into their academic path and integrating it into their future vision of who they will be on the market. What is a bit tricky in our era is that you couldn't go wrong choosing to go into IT, but now you can also miss the turn. The turn is already embraced while you are a student, just like you use and hold your mobile phone because in your time it was the mobile phone that took over, and there you have it, well, it's the same thing. That is to say that artificial intelligence and new IT practices must be integrated into future consultants. So that is what I would tell them. And don't be afraid to be entrepreneurial.

[00:19:23] Camille de Meeûs: That's the most important thing today!

[00:19:24] Christophe Patris: That's exactly it. And so, as you see here and as you say, we are a team of passionate people. And so if you have the passion, you will succeed. So passion motivates, it allows you to take on challenges. And here, in our company and within our structure, it is magnified. That is to say, that's what we look for in our consultants: bringing that little spark of different thinking that allows us to position ourselves in places that weren't originally meant for us.

[00:19:47] Mathieu Baugniet: Yeah, you also need a bit of passion because, as we all know, even us still now, careers aren't linear like before, staying with the same employer for your entire life, etc. Sometimes you find yourself at 40, at 50, and you see that in your sector—for me, that was the case in journalism—well, you feel there are changes, does it still suit you? And so it's true that the agility we practice in IT remains important, but now you almost need even more of it. So sometimes it can be difficult, but if you're passionate, everything is easier.

[00:20:14] Camille de Meeûs: For sure, and it's always nice to get up in the morning despite the difficulties (Mathieu Baugniet: Exactly). If the passion is there, you keep going, you move forward always with a lot of motivation.

[00:20:21] Christophe Patris: Exactly!

Why did Oniryx turn to PHCom?

[00:20:22] Camille de Meeûs: Now, we are going to talk a little bit about the collaboration with PHC om. Why did you reach out to us?

[00:20:26] Christophe Patris: You asked the question, saying, "How have you improved over time, moving from an idea, a company, to becoming—I'll use the classic business terms—so we were a start-up that became a scale-up and is now transforming into an industrial company?" Yes, we received an industry and large business award in the Namur region, which is certainly an established milestone, but how do we achieve this transformation? Because there is a dual transformation: going from a start-up to a scale-up, and from a scale-up to an industry. That is the core question. Well, we reviewed all our processes, once again relying on collective intelligence; we created working groups, we redefined all our processes. And at one point, we realized that one of the weak processes was our ability to handle lead management, or at least to generate leads. Well, that's how this reflection came about with Bert, our sales rep; he contributed, he created a working group, and said, "I might be able to bring in more incoming leads simply if we made use of existing market experts." We don't intend to replace market experts ourselves, but on the other hand, we know how to scout out hidden gems. And for us, PHCom emerged as that differentiator that allowed us to capture more leads, build better awareness, and be more precise in our customer relationships. And that's how we see PHCom here.

Does the collaboration save time?

[00:21:34] Camille de Meeûs: Does that also allow you to save time and be more productive?

[00:21:37] Christophe Patris: Exactly, that's one of the points that came out. That is to say, before, our sales department handled everything, including lead generation, finding clients, finding prospects—call it whatever you like—but it took a huge amount of time. And that time spent, well, is time that can't be dedicated to quality work on other elements. And so it didn't allow us to make that necessary leap from a scale-up to an established industrial company. So yes, indeed, PHCom allows us to focus our sales energy on things that are within its scope, within its sphere of activity. And so collective intelligence means respecting the expertise around us; it's not about doing everything haphazardly, and I really insist on that. Just because we're motivated and eager to do things doesn't mean we're specialists in lead generation. It's not our specialty (Camille de Meeûs: It's not your primary scope, basically), and so collective intelligence says, "When you have the opportunity to partner with expertise, use that expertise, embrace that expertise where it is found, respect it, use it." And so that's actually how our working groups operate.

How do you surround yourself with the right expertise?

[00:22:36] Camille de Meeûs: And basically surrounding yourself with efficient and relevant people in their sector?

[00:22:40] Christophe Patris: Exactly. Earlier you were saying, "Well, how do your competitors behave?" We often see our competitors more as partners too. It's with them that we can do business to approach clients. It's also with them that we can envision new concepts as well. And that's how you have to look at things; we are in a transforming world, a hyper-collaborative world, etc. You have to get into that mindset. And so, seeking out expertise where it is—we can't be experts in every field—the idea of partnering with third-party companies that allow us to pivot and grow, well, PHCom is exactly, concretely what can be illustrated like that.

How would you describe the collaboration with PHCom in three words?

[00:23:11] Camille de Meeûs: If you had to define your collaboration with PHCom in three words. What would come to your mind?

[00:23:16] Christophe Patris: Well, complicated at first because the initial collaboration was poorly set up, the framework was poorly established, and so we actually realized that we hadn't utilized PHCom for its expertise, but simply used it as an "out of the box" tool, without integrating it into our business strategy. And so the initial contact was complicated—how do you bounce back positively from a difficult start?

Why resume the collaboration after a break?

[00:23:37] Camille de Meeûs: Especially since there was a two-year break and then you came back, right? That's it, yeah.

[00:23:39] Christophe Patris: Exactly. And so the first thing, when something doesn't work, the first thing is to be able to look internally at what isn't working. Not quite two years—one year, a year and a few months. But we actually took a step back, and we revisited things; we asked you to run an analysis on why the campaigns we had launched hadn't been productive. We analyzed it, took into account everything you had done, created working groups at the sales level, and brought them on board. And so Bert, whom you know since you are in contact with him, but also Carole and other people we mentioned, sat around the table and started thinking, "Well, how can we have a stronger impact on this part?". And we realized, "Look, we need to bring in expertise in this area, in that area, etc.". And we actually built a better communication channel with PHcom. And here, well, we launched a second campaign that is positive. That's how we bounce back with collective intelligence; once again, the goal is not to dwell on failure, but to learn. You always have to learn and fix what went wrong. And then, when we realize that we are more mature and have reached the necessary expertise to collaborate together, that's when we revive the ideas. And that's why we came back to you and relaunched the campaign. And a third one now, as a matter of fact.

[00:24:40] Camille de Meeûs: You also have this ability to question yourselves, to have the humility to say, "Okay, we can't do everything, we need to surround ourselves with the right people, and that's how we'll succeed." I get the impression that this is your company's philosophy.

[00:24:50] Mathieu Baugniet: Well, having experienced it in another life—I used to be a journalist, especially in TV—sometimes it was two reports a day, so you might have the one for the 1:00 PM news that goes well, and then the 7:00 PM one isn't good. So it's a process of questioning that... Well, that can be exhausting because it's every single day. But yes, I feel that ability, and well, that's also what appeals to me and keeps me at Oniryx; yes, you really feel that constant self-questioning, which doesn't suit everyone, to be honest. But it's true that in the five years I've been here, the way we've evolved has been really, well, there's truly been... The best proof, too, is that we really have clients now, new clients with, well, pretty interesting projects. And that's also the goal of working with you: precisely to open up and seek out clients where maybe we aren't present yet.

What can we wish Oniryx for the future?

[00:25:34] Camille de Meeûs: What can we wish you for the future?

[00:25:36] Christophe Patris: To continue all the investments we're making and make them last, to show that we can be disruptive in our approach, that we can put things in place, stay motivated, stay passionate. People can wish us all the best, but I think we already have a lot going for us right now, so we'll stay humble. Let's carry on with what we already have now, transform ourselves, and continue leveraging our strengths.

[00:25:54] Mathieu Baugniet: Yes, well, that's really it. Yes, to prove that this model can also provide not only economic sustainability, but human sustainability as well.

[00:26:00] Camille de Meeûs: Thank you Mathieu, thank you Christophe for (Mathieu Baugniet: Thank you Camille) your participation today (Christophe Patris: Thank you Camille, it was a pleasure), and all the best for the future.